There Is More Good Among Us Than We Think 

Kate Bowler
Hey friends, it’s Kate. I just want to tell you some big news. I’ve got a new book coming out. It’s called Joyful Anyway, and it’s going to be out in the world on April 7th, 2026. And it’s available now for pre-order.

It is a book about what joy really is. Not this glossy version we’re sold, but the real surprising kind that can coexist with our pain, our questions, and our beautiful ordinary lives.

So if you’ve ever wondered whether joy is still possible for you, even now, this book is my wholehearted yes.

You can pre-order it wherever books are sold and it really helps a lot when you do. Pre-order is this weird thing with authors where it lets everybody know that it’s the book that they want on sale and on shelf spaces and it’s just like a little vote of confidence.

So if you want to pre-order it, it’s all yours.

This is Everything Happens and I’m Kate Bowler.

So these days, the word Christian carries a lot of weight, and not all of it is good. For many people, it’s been tangled up with power and exclusion and nationalism and just the kind of certainty that leaves very little room for grace.

There are still people of faith whose life looks nothing like that. People whose beliefs show up not as dominance or control or hyper certainty, but as love.

Today’s conversation is with one of those people.

Bishop Michael Curry is one of my spiritual heroes because he reminds me that Christianity is at its heart, not an argument to be won or an identity to be defended. It is the practice of love.

A love that is patient and persistent and often very sneaky. It’s the kind of love that shows up in trailer parks and food pantries and hospital rooms and church basements.

And that is the kind of love that doesn’t need to ask who deserves help, only who needs it.

So this conversation was taped in front of a room of pastors who are of course some of my very favorite kinds of people. Pastors have just frankly the weirdest job.

They are always out there writing a weekly TED talk and then I’ll call one and find out that they’re power washing someone’s driveway and then visiting someone’s relative who no one will admit is extremely boring.

And then just there they are loving them anyway.

And I just find that work to be so gorgeously persistent and faithful. And exactly the kind of person who needs this sort of pep talk today.

So listen in as Bishop Curry and I talk about what it means to follow Jesus in a world that feels fractured and apocalyptic and downright exhausting.

And maybe we can all take part in a movement of mobilized love.

Bishop, you are the person, priest, prophet, pastor, who really, really believes in love.

And I thought it was so wonderful that during your grand presiding work, that you went around to visit almost every diocese, including the one where my in-laws were staying right across the street in a trailer park in Texas.

And they were like, you would not believe who came to visit us.

I just thought it was such a wonderful way to have a tour of the church.

And it made me want to start by asking: what did you see that gave you hope on those visits?

Bishop Michael Curry
You know, I do. I mean, this is… they’re institutional, organized ways, but I’ve seen just traveling around the church, normal church folk who really are striving to follow Jesus for real do extraordinary things.

I mean incredible things.

And I’ve seen that both here and in various places around the world.

I remember being… I was in Zimbabwe. So this was overseas, but in Zimbabwe some years ago now, we were in a village that had famine. The famine had come through, and they hadn’t had famines there for a while.

And there were a lot of reasons for that, but they hadn’t had…

There was a lady at the church in the mother’s union. They were providing food and that kind of thing, a lot of bread for folk.

And she was one of the people herself who was without.

Folk like that.

Some folk in Colorado, and there’s a church there. And through the pandemic, they kept their pantry going and got the food.

They had to figure out how do you do it safely and all that, but they did it.

And they would deliver, because they found there were folk who couldn’t get to the pickup site.

And they were like normal…

I mean, you know what I mean? These were normal church folk who you see in your church.

There is more good among us.

It just seems, as the Bishop of Washington, Mariann Budde often says, mobilized love.

And I think she’s right. I’ve seen it mobilized and seen it organized and seen it put into practice and use.

I know there’s evil. I know all of that. I didn’t get to 72… I had to think how old am I?

But anyway, I know of all of this.

And yet I’ve seen the power or the witness of folk who really are trying to follow the way of Jesus and trying to live a life grounded in love and trying to love others and do unto others.

I’ve seen them. They exist.

And they may be more than we think because very often they’re quiet.

Kate Bowler
It sounds too like one of the qualities we have, that extraordinary service…

Service that doesn’t make any sense.

It feels like a rainbow comes out. It feels like seeing a baby be born.

Like you can’t even believe someone would give what they don’t have or drive around doing boring errands for other people.

It creates awe. It gives me shivers every time.

Bishop Michael Curry
I remember a woman in my last congregation before I was elected bishop here. This was in Baltimore.

I buried her youngest son who was killed in a drug drive-by. This would have been in the early ’90s when drive-bys were happening. Soon after, crack hit the streets. The violence went up.

Anyway, he was killed.

And this was the same woman who would bring children in the neighborhood to church — actually to the eight o’clock service. I mean, I’m talking like twenty kids.

She brought them year after year.

Eventually kids got baptized, confirmed, and many of those kids — one of them, Gregory, he’d be mid-thirties by now — he’s a Master Sergeant in the Air Force.

He’s done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think he’s in Texas now.

This is just a kid who could have gotten forgotten, save for this woman who lost her own son to a drug drive-by.

That’s the kind of people. They’re out there. They’re in here. Yeah, they are.

Kate Bowler
I bet they are.

Bishop Michael Curry
Yes. Thank you.

Kate Bowler
One of the things that just continues to create awe in me is the amount of extra hours that faithful people put into other people.

It is wild.

So I decided to look up the rates of volunteerism. About a quarter of Americans volunteer regularly.

But the reason institutions have struggled recently is that the kind of volunteer they typically get is changing.

Older people tend to be more consistent — faithfully volunteering without asking for an experience. Younger people often hope volunteering will give them purpose or meaning.

The older folks are like, “I’ll just show up. It’s Tuesday. I said I would.”

I’ll never forget my wonderful church lady, Adeline. Her husband Hugo passed away. We were all there at the service.

And then the next day, there she was at the organ.

We were like, “Adeline.”

And she said, “Oh, I was on the rotation.”

It’s not glamorous. It’s the cogs that make the universe work.

Bishop Michael Curry
Every Sunday night I call a woman named Josie Robbins who was in my home church.

When my mother got sick and was in a coma for a year and a half, Josie stepped in and backed up my grandmother.

She taught my father how to cook and comb a girl’s hair. She was just always there.

We did a short documentary while I was presiding bishop, and the crew kept trying to ask her why she helped.

She said, “They were children. They needed somebody.”

They kept pushing for a motive.

She said, “That’s what you’re supposed to do.”

She was a biology teacher who later became principal of a school set up for girls who got pregnant so they could continue their education.

Generations are better off because of her.

And when asked why, she said, “You’re supposed to do the right thing.”

That was it.

Kate Bowler
I really like that phrase: do for one person what you wish you could do for everyone.

Right now, when we feel overwhelmed, those small acts can feel like they don’t amount to much.

And yet, they do.

We’re going to be right back after a break.

Kate Bowler
It used to be that when you turned on the radio, you’d hear the first bars of a song and realize, “Oh, it’s a Christian song.”

Now it feels like Christian media has an unflappable certainty.

Culture warriors are winning the day, and they don’t sound like love.

If we don’t want to be culture warriors but still want to be deeply engaged, what’s our posture?

Bishop Michael Curry
If it doesn’t smell like Jesus, it’s not Christian.

I don’t care how many Bible passages are quoted.

Jesus is vulnerable. Jesus is compassionate. “Father, forgive them.”

That’s Jesus.

I want to be like Jesus — most of the time.

To be honest, there are some times I ain’t.

Kate Bowler
I worry people don’t know what the church actually stands for anymore.

Bishop Michael Curry
I can’t tell you how many times people have said to me, “I didn’t know Christianity was about love.”

Surveys show people trust Jesus but distrust Christianity.

That tells us something.

Kate Bowler
If you were going to — and this is one of my favorite things about people who’ve recently retired from their position — they might be a little more bossy.

But if you were to just magically force us all to do something, what do you wish we would all do so that people, so the greater American public, would really know what the mainline stands for?

Bishop Michael Curry
You know, I think it would be enough for the message of Jesus to really be understood.

That that’s the message and that’s the challenge and opportunity. Now do with it what you will, but clarity about what that is.

And I do think more people — everybody’s not going to follow him — but more people might see what goodness looks like and say, “I may not follow him as a Christian, but I’m gonna learn from him and do like him.”

And you know what? That’s good enough. I’ll take that.

And my guess is there will be some Christians gonna come out of that.

I think just something that simple, to be honest.

Kate Bowler
I was just in Sweden last week, and to be honest, I was kind of blown away by the Church of Sweden.

Historic church. They stopped being the official church of Sweden about seven or eight years ago.

They thought, great, we have a wonderful opportunity to be arbiters of public trust.

Apparently about ten years ago there started to be an uptick in people’s belief that their local pastor was trustworthy.

They started going to their pastor for more things.

And what’s beautiful is ten years ago they baptized about 5,000 adults a year.

Now that number is 15,000 and 20,000.

Just slow, trusted, reasonable faithfulness.

Bishop Michael Curry
It matters.

The message is real. And it is good.

And the messenger is incredible.

I don’t even know why I’d get surprised at that, but I do.

Imagine if that message was really heard.

At a minimum, more would seek to emulate the goodness that’s there.

And beyond that, some would dare to take up the cross and follow.

We’d be a lot better off.

And that doesn’t diminish other faiths. It has nothing to do with that.

We would just be a lot better off.

If I didn’t believe that, I would have retired and quit.

I ain’t quitting till the Lord says it’s time for you to quit.

Kate Bowler
It sounds like a funny thing to say, but like… how about this new pope though?

Speaker 3
I like it. For real. Yeah, I like — he’s kinda great. He’s kinda cool. I don’t know him or anything, but he’s kind of cool.

Kate Bowler
I feel like that’s coming. I do.

But I’ve been really surprised, and just in terms of public engagement, I’ve really been surprised by the number of people who’ve been able to know, say, that the Pope recently had a statement about…

He’s just been very agile, I think.

So Pope Leo seems like he’s been a good example of someone who’s been able to engage civil discourse without kind of sounding like a culture warrior.

Bishop Michael Curry
Yes, that’s exactly.

I like that phrase, culture warrior. That’s right.

He doesn’t sound like a culture warrior.

He’s not a person committed to conquest.

Kate Bowler
It was something I got from a book I read about twenty years ago by an anthropologist named Susan Harding.

She wrote a book called The Book of Jerry Falwell.

She spent less time on content and more on tone.

What does fundamentalism sound like?

For her, it sounded like the will to dominate.

Because it’s certainly how it feels — like it’s getting into all the cracks of you, and you’re not sure how to protect yourself from something that feels like it’s not for you.

Bishop Michael Curry
I know.

This is terrible — I can’t remember who the preacher was — but I remember he would heal people on TV.

My grandma would watch him.

He would lay hands…

And my sister and I, when my grandma went to the bathroom, we’d turn the volume off.

So all you could see was this guy.

It looked like he was beating up people, and we used to enjoy that.

Speaker 3
Yeah, Grandma came back and said, “Shouldn’t laugh at religion. Don’t laugh at the Lord.”

Oh, okay, Grandma.

Kate Bowler
Oh man… the only time I’ve ever been to Israel is with Benny Hinn, the televangelist who used to like hit people.

Bishop Michael Curry
He did, yeah. It wasn’t him, but he did actually.

Kate Bowler
He’s got to leave a little room for the Spirit.

For people who are feeling a little wrung out, a little tired…

What words of advice do you have for those in spiritual leadership who might feel weary?

Bishop Michael Curry
You ever wonder why Jesus always tries to retreat?

He’s trying to commune. He needs time to recharge the batteries.

To see again: what am I here for?

To be in deep relationship with God.

There’s something life-giving there.

I remember reading Krister Stendahl’s book The Energy of God.

He compared the Holy Spirit to energy — without energy, society grinds to a halt.

And Jesus retreated to be in deeper touch with the energies of God.

For us it’s the same.

There are times when you need your prayer closet, or a retreat, or somewhere with no agenda except to be with the Lord.

Because our way, unaided, doesn’t have the staying power.

Kate Bowler
We’re going to take a quick break to tell you about the sponsors of this show. We’ll be right back.

So I’ve been working on this project about joy for a couple of years, and it took me forever to try to pull apart the pieces of like, why is joy not the same as happiness?

If happiness is sort of climbing a ladder of good feelings, and congratulations, you can hit a nice top rung, Christian joy is not like that at all.

And it can happen anywhere.

How do you think about — how would you explain Christian joy? And what makes it different than happiness?

Bishop Michael Curry
It’s not occasioned by happenstance.

It’s a deep response of… I’m not sure if gratitude’s the right word… a deep response.

I think of kind of trust.

It’s almost like — remember when you hold a baby and they’re fussing, and all of a sudden they just kind of stop fussing…

Sometimes they coo or they go to sleep.

It’s like they trust you.

An animal will do that. If you get an animal that’s been mistreated, and when they finally get to a point of trust, they’ll come and sit near you.

They’ll come a little closer.

I think it’s like that.

It’s like I can trust.

And if I can trust, that is almost the deepest…

It’s like if I can trust, then I’m loved.

And I’m experiencing the deepest thing that a human being can experience.

Joy comes out of that.

That’s deeper than happiness.

Happiness is if I hit the lottery.

But that joy…

“I got that joy, joy, joy, joy… where? Down in my heart.”

The song gets it.

It’s deep.

It’s coming from that place of contentment, which is related to trust.

“Father, into thy hands, I commend my spirit.”

Kate Bowler
Bishop, that’s the best explanation I’ve ever heard for that little still moment of grace.

We experience that little like… ah…

And then the flood of joy comes in.

But they’re just settling into that grace.

That’s so beautiful to hear you describe it.

Thank you so much for always making the truth more real.

It’s such a good reminder that there’s so much more good among us than we are trained to see, or we read in the headlines.

Not loud good, not flashy good, but steady, faithful good.

The kind of people who just keep showing up simply because they said they would.

Like my friend Roger.

You’ve heard me talk about my friend Roger before, but he and I went to the church.

And he was also the librarian at Duke University.

He was also in my historical division.

So I saw him in all kinds of different settings.

He was quiet and kind and deeply competent.

The kind of person who would never draw attention to himself.

He was just sort of in the background.

Until I got very sick.

And I had a very inconvenient set of problems.

I had to take a weekly flight to Atlanta for a clinical trial.

That meant I had an ungodly flight.

I had to be at the airport at like four in the morning.

So I’m getting picked up at like 3:20.

Who wants to be up then?

I’m too tired to drive.

So when I was sick, there he was — Roger — at the crack of dawn.

He volunteered to drive me to the airport.

No drama. No speeches.

Just someone who showed up in front of my side door over and over again, even though it was completely inconvenient to him.

Roger was love with a parking brake.

And he died a couple of years ago.

But his faithfulness, those small ordinary acts of care that carried me, have left a permanent imprint on my life.

So it made me want to ask you:

Who has been a Roger in your life?

Someone who showed up just because they were asked…

Or because they noticed a need…

Or because it was Wednesday…

Or because they said they would.

Love, as it turns out, is often mobilized one small act at a time.

So I’d love to hear about your Rogers.

Or maybe you are one.

And like, dude, feel free to boast.

Rogers never boast.

So now’s your time.

Come on over to Substack and tell me your story.

I’m at KateBowler.Substack.com

I swear to you, it’s like the nicest place on the internet.

I’m completely certain of that.

And while you’re there, just make sure you’re subscribed because I’m going to be posting a daily reflection throughout Lent.

And it’s totally free.

And as always, thank you so much for listening.

Thanks for being the kind of people who are the ordinary persistent ones…

Who do the deeply boring acts, totally necessary acts, of loving others.

The world is so much better because you’re in it.

A big thank you to all the people that made this event and conversation possible:

Jessica Ritchie, Harriet Putman, Keith Weston, Katherine Smith, Megan Crunkleton, Anne Herring, Hailie Durrett, Elias Aneo, Anna Fitzgerald-Peterson, and Burt’s Media Services.

This is Everything Happens with me, Kate Bowler.