Father Greg Boyle

Kate Bowler: There’s some people you meet and you just go. Well, that can’t be a real person, can it? Certainly he gets like mad in traffic or grouchy with loved ones or needs an extra minute to himself before he sees people. Right? I’m not convinced today’s guest has any actual flaws, but hey, let’s find out together. I’m Kate Bowler and this is Everything Happens. Today I’m speaking with Father Greg Boyle. Over 30 years ago, Father Boyle started working with gang members in Los Angeles. Not the easiest population, and frankly, it’s one that many others ignore. But they are people whom Father Boyle loves, like really, really loves. His life’s work is, of course, Homeboy Industries, the organization he founded that provides services for former gang members to teach them job training, get tattoos removed, facilitates healing and reintegrate into a society built around belonging. The lessons that Father Boyle learns from who he calls homies are contagious. Every day they teach him about what it means to heal, to belong to one another. To practice compassion. To relearn how to trust God and others. These are just some of the transcendent truths that he has to share with us. Oh, and he does cuss. So maybe he is human. Jury’s out. But just a heads up. There’s one spicy word in today’s conversation. Father Boyle has written a slew of books, and whichever one you pick up, you can’t go wrong. Tattoos on the Heart. Barking to the Choir, and his latest, Cherished Belonging.

Kate: Father Boyle. I am obsessed with you. I will keep that to a minimum during our time together. But I’ve been so looking forward to this.

Greg Boyle: Yeah, likewise. Thank you.

Kate: I came to visit you last year like everybody wants to come visit you. And I got this beautiful tour of places where people take classes or get therapy or tattoo removal. And this a big crowd of people waiting outside of your office because, it reminded me of the like perfectly old timey, the priest is, the priest is in.

Greg: So it’s you were in the headquarters, you know, And so we have 13 social enterprises. Some of them operate out of there, the cafe merchandize, the bakery. And then we have all these others.

Kate: Like in the airport, like in L.A.X..

Greg: And L.A.X. we had two. And then they shut down all the eateries and American Airlines for some reason to rebuild, and then silkscreen electronic recycling. We do a thing called Homeboy threads, which is we get all this fabric and toss away stuff from gas and all these different huge. And then we repurpose them so that they don’t end up in a landfill. So 10,000 folks a year walk through our doors trying to reimagine their lives. You know, we’re not there for those who need it, just those who want it. So, you know, they’re all kind of looking around and they begin the process. Drug test orientation interview. Yeah. So a lot of people.

Kate: I mean, there’s like a story of how it could go. Someone could describe this ministry and go, well, this is a story about people come to you with potential and you recognize that potential. And then I think there’s like an implication of like elevate. You have this like very anti, you would never use the language of potential.

Greg: Ever. Yeah. I mean in fact I had a board member, a great guy who has since left us but he always said you know, you see a gang member and all you see is potential. But then I thought, no, that’s not maybe that’s just imprecise, but I, I see goodness, that’s what I want to see and hope to see and intend to see. But potential is kind of like you have potential, you don’t so much have it, can’t really see it in you. But the goodness is kind of the pervasive, unshakable thing that everybody has, you know, And then that’s all you need to see and that’s all you need to reflect back. And that’s all anybody needs to put one foot in front of the next is to say, I’m unshakably good. And  then resilience is born of that. And a kind of a muscular hope is born of that.

Kate: I wrote a book called Good Enough because I was thinking about our culture of exhausting perfectionism. But this is like this is a deeper level than that. This is this sort of substratum of what makes us human. For people who don’t have a sense of like how, how, you’re you’re coming in strong on an argument where you could say, well, there’s nothing here, there’s nothing here but violence and decay. And every good reason to believe that people are not fundamentally good.

Greg: Yeah. But I said this st L.A. Times Festival of Books, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to that, but, you know, the two principles that we embrace at Homeboy is everybody’s unshakably good and we belong to each other. And then I said, you know, do I think every vexing complex social dilemma would disappear if we embrace those two? And I said, yes, I do. Well, the whole audience, a huge auditorium burst into laughter, which kind of startled me. And then I said, yes, I do. And I do. You know, I think it’s kind of the starting point. Otherwise, how do you get beyond behavior and see as God sees, you know? And I don’t have any doubt at all that God sees the unmistakable goodness. And how we belong to each other. So it’s not waiting, you know, to measure up to somehow can we grow in goodness. Growing in love makes sense to me. But growing and goodness is. I don’t think God knows what we’re talking about.

Kate: Because you’ll use, like healing language in a way I really enjoyed. Where you’ll say, someone will come to you and say, well, you know, I want to change you. You say, like, it’s not that I think that you’re capable of change, but I but I think that you’re, that you could heal here. Something like that.

Greg: Yeah. Well, a part of it is like we’ve been punishing wound, ergo mass incarceration. But what if we sought to heal it? So that’s the kind of the distinction. Rather than, then you can start to imagine the day when prisons are empty and police are obsolete and, and you go, we’ve shifted. We’ve decided to recognize brokenness for what it is, that it’s not bad people doing bad things. It’s people who are wounded and need healing.

Kate: So what story comes to mind lately of somebody who you got to watch heal in some way?

Greg: I ran into this guy Louie, you know, who I hadn’t seen in a long time. You know, he yelled my name and ran across the street. Big, huge guy. And I hadn’t seen them probably in, well, I think he said he’s, eight years he’s been working at this air conditioning factory in Montebello, which is east of downtown. And I had no idea what had happened to him. And that was the job we got him. He was with us for 18 months. I remember on his last day, you know, of his 18 months, he said, can I speak to the other trainees? Nobody’s ever said that. Sometimes they’ll say goodbye and just kind of a thing. No, he wanted to give a speech, and so he had the microphone and crying. And he ended it by saying, All of you are diamonds covered in dust. And he did. He was, he used to be drug dealer to the stars. And he used to tell me the stars, I would go, I don’t need to hear this. You know, this is too much information. But he was a big bad gang member. He said all he wanted to do is be the be the baddest gang member and the biggest drug dealer. And then he kind of turned all that around and, and, you know, found another way. But he found community, you know, a culture that really held him. Which mattered.

Kate: When people come in, they don’t always just not know each other. They might know each other for terrible reasons.

Greg: Oh yeah. There isn’t anybody there who doesn’t have multiple, multiple enemies, rivals and real visceral kinds of. And sometimes they can talk about that. They can say, remember that time you almost ran over? Remember that time you shot at me and I was with my kids? All these things that are really hard. But they managed to get to a place where they can file it away somewhere and move on and have a bond that’s really deeper than anything they’ve ever known.

Kate: Do you think it’s just like small acts of trust, that kind of like, the like, like that’s the softening that takes place that makes the bond deeper?

Greg: Yeah. You know, there’s not, I always talk about the one false move God, as opposed to the no-matter-whatness of God. And so you want people to kind of embrace this. You know, we move way beyond second chances a long time ago. So we’re like in the ninth, somewhere in the ninth range, you know. And so people know that. And that’s part of the culture of, you know, everybody’s going to make mistakes. Rehab have happens. I had a homie today who was texting me, ‘I feel people are going to look down on me’ because he’s has heroin addiction. And and we caught it and we said let’s do rehab and come back and but the hardest part of it is people now look down on him. I said, no, everybody wants you to get well, you know, and wants you back. So, you know, that’s what you hope. If you keep sending out that signal and everybody’s giving a dose. Yeah. Not just me, not the therapist. We used to think that healing was you go to a therapist once a week at Homeboy. Now nobody thinks that way. It’s all, everybody holds a piece. Everybody’s supplying a dose, you know, from the security guy out in the parking lot. Everybody is intentional in how they treat people. And see them.

Kate: I tried to replicate a story that you wrote about and I failed, but I got a couple of good lines when I was trying to tell it to my best friend Chelsea over the phone. But it was a story where someone who was really tough to deal with and had that kind of like conditional, like this relationship is over feeling. And you were trying very hard to convince them that, like, there’s nothing they can do. It means that they can’t come back.

Greg: Is this the one about a bridge?

Speaker 2 It is. Yeah.

Greg: Yeah. Well, there’s a guy, Chino, who, you know, drinking became the thing. You have to go to rehab. And so you kind of let them go and you kind of say, do 30 days and we’ll come right back. And he wasn’t having it. And so a lot of time passed and he just kind of texted me again. He said, can you give me some money? And I said, you know, Chino, I love you. I’ve known you for 20 years since you were a kid, but if I gave you money, I wouldn’t be helping you. So look, I know that, you know, and you know that rehab is what you need. But and you’ve burned your bridges with all your family, all your friends, you will never burn your bridge with me. I push send. He wrote me back, fuck your bridge. It’s one of my favorite things. And so I told everybody on my staff who are all gang members. And then that became our kind of catchphrase with each other. They’d hug me and they’d go, fuck your bridge. And I would just, you know, it was getting verklempt, you know.

Kate: I like that.

Greg: Yeah. So, yeah, I hadn’t heard, I hadn’t thought of that in a long time.

Kate: There’s nothing that’s going to keep you away.

Greg: Nothing. I was trying to do this big no matter whatness speech.

Kate: It’s like stereo above your head.

Greg: Yes, exactly. Exactly. But he wasn’t having it, and it just made me laugh. But I also, it’s one of those exercises of, because things do sting. I mean, you can’t deny it or somebody will reject or tell you to, you know, shove it. And then so that was for me, it was an exercise because I knew this kid so well and loved this kid. And you let the sting in. Praise and blame. You let it in for just a moment. You don’t ever let it, oh my god, you know, he’s, he said this to me and and as opposed to. And I’ve done this before, you know? You know. Well, let me tell you where I’ve been for you. You know, And then it’s a chronicle of.

Kate: Yes. You called it the litany.

Greg: Yeah, the litany.

Kate: I’ve always called it the list. And I always notice that I have a list.

Greg: List is more accurate. Because I don’t sing it.

Kate: I know. Litany is funnier, though, because for people who are not religious, they might not know that it is the whole recitation of all of the good works of God with a lot of sacred hands.

Greg: Yeah.

Kate: But I, the list I notice comes out if someone doesn’t know me very well. And say they bring up, like they bring up a story and you want to be like, well, like, what’s the shorthand for, you know, this person at my work screwed me over or I’m mad at my parent, and then you have the story. And the story is always this calcified wound.

Greg: But it’s a human temptation. But, Pema Chödrön, do you read her? She’s a Buddhist monk, I guess. And she’s great. And she always talks about catching yourself. That’s part of her practice. And so that’s where you have to catch yourself. You go, you know, you want to tell somebody to, in the horse you rode in on kind of thing and you catch yourself. You go, no, I’ll just let this go. I find that really hard.

Kate: I’ve, my best version is I just try to make sure at least the list is new.

Greg: Yeah.

Kate: So like, I want to clear out the old items.

Greg: Revise the list.

Kate: If any of that gets forgiven, good for all of us. And, like, see if I can, create some new grievances.

Greg: Yeah, that’s right.

Kate: We’re going to be right back after a break to hear from our sponsors. Don’t go anywhere. I’m not going to remember exactly who said it, but it was something like, in thinking about the image of God, this God who is conditional, the God who doesn’t necessarily let us come back right away, the God who wants us to do better. He quoted somebody as saying something like, Why do we always keep drawing pictures of God that scare us?

Greg: Yeah. Yeah. Meister Eckhart. And it’s a lie, any talk of God that doesn’t comfort you. I was on a panel once where it’s kind of the, you know, at the margins with the poor, like, if it doesn’t hurt, you’re probably doing it wrong. And I went ugh, and about costing you. And I just don’t buy that stuff. You know, I mean, I wouldn’t trade my life for anybody’s. And I know it’s where the joy is. That’s why you feel vaguely fraudulent, because people go, oh my God, it must be so hard. Even here, people do this, you know, and it’s kind of a how do you do it thing? And I go, well, gosh, they say it like it’s hard.

Kate: I feel, I mean, identically about very sick people.

Greg: Yeah.

Kate: It feels like it should be a burden to hear the story. Yeah. But every time it really feels like they gave me a gift.

Greg: Oh my gosh.

Greg: And then there is a, like, marrow of the universe feeling. I don’t wanna say it’s, like, easy, but it feels beautiful. And that part, I felt like there’s a there’s an endless. There’s just like an endless love for that.

Greg: Well, it’s a kind of fullness, even if it isn’t joy. It’s, you feel like you’re, you’re inhabiting some hidden wholeness. A thing that sort of was not available before brought to you by somebody who’s, you know, suffering. It’s a way of accompaniment where you’re kind of feeling what a privilege, what a gift.

Kate: I’m going to argue for you and against you for a second. This costly love thing, because I think I would say, yes, love should hurt you only because I’m so tired of the upper middle class spirituality as part of a self-improvement program stuff. And that’s usually how they decide whether a spiritual practice is good is if it inherently has therapeutic benefits. And I think this has been I mean, the 70s ruined a lot of things. Polyester fine.

Greg: Yeah.

Kate: But like, I think of that, really, we’ve had about 50 years of American culture being obsessed with the idea that, that religion or spirituality or anything true is supposed to make you feel good.

Greg: Yeah, but part of the thing is the harder thing is the better thing which yeah, I’d say, well no, it’s actually just the harder thing. I think the problem is with that kind of notion of, you know, will I be, that’s sort of the therapeutic process. You know, the point of it is, you know, it can’t be about you. And the thing about, like, burnout, you know, and people go, oh my god, I guess I’m just too compassionate. I, I had no idea that I was this compassionate. You know, no. You let it become about you. People, we should rest and you should sleep and you should exercise and you should do the those things. But if it’s about success, if it’s about, you know, somehow people completing, you know, outcomes that are verifiable and we had this many kids graduate and this many homies never went back to prison. We do that kind of stuff. You know, people are always evidence based outcomes. But, but I don’t believe in it. At least I don’t believe in it as an engine that drives things. You just be as loving as you can be and kind of leave it at that. But, you know, if a senior staff comes to me and says, I need a month off because I guess I just let myself be too compassionate and I say, no, you allowed it to become about you and you’re not allowing yourself to be reached by people or to receive people or to allow your heart to be altered, which is the whole thing. I think the key that that prevents that from becoming displaced and disordered is, is it can’t be about you. So even as people are going, is this going to get me to whatever, nirvana.

Kate: I think more like optimization or some kind of replacement for like a mindfulness app.

Greg: Yeah. Except that, you know, the people’s notion of God is so linked to the bad parent, you know, who is and all this stuff. Miraba, I was telling me about her, you know, she always says once, you know, the God of love, you fire all the other gods. And so the other gods are the ones that are are operative saying it’s all about you and make sure that you’re happy. But that’s, that kind of journey that you described is really, the goal there is happiness. But the goal in going to the margins and allowing the folks at the margins to make you different, the goal is, is joy. That everybody inhabiting it in an exquisitely mutual way.

Kate: Studying happiness culture has been a very interesting way to see how we’ve secularized the prosperity gospel. I just spent so long looking at theologies of show and tell, where you do certain things, you deserve certain things, and then God is supposed to hold up God’s end of the bargain and give you the happy family and the health and the, and I see especially like women struggling under the weight of so much show and tell. And it really has dominated almost all cheap paperbacks, almost everything at Target or Wal-Mart or like anywhere you get an affordable book, it’s going to tell you a five step plan to do something like this. So I was trying to understand more about how can we get, how can there be we can have greater capacity for joy without accidentally swapping it out for some of our conceptions of happiness? And I’ve really understood joy as a gift. I have really understood joy as something that happens. Like way out where nobody expects it with people who are not cultural winners. And I’ve understood it intermittently. Like like an anvil sometimes. But I, I guess I wasn’t sure if we could expect joy. And so I just was kind of letting it happen. If that makes any sense.

Greg: Yeah. Like inadvertent.

Kate: Because I don’t want to, I don’t want to then say, well, then I can have joy and then, and then spend so much time staring at my own emotions, worrying that I’m making it like another form of show and tell, I guess. But the randomness of joy kind of was teaching me something, I thought about how there’s not like an economy here that I get to predict. It’s just, try to live in love, and then you really get the bonus feature of joy sometimes. Does that sound right?

Greg: Yeah, it does. Except that, you know, the prerequisite is somehow to move into some other centered universe where you’re actually greeting the other person. You know, like the homies always say at Homeboy, they’re used to being watched, they’re not used to being seen. In order to actually see people, you really have to have some kind of egoless, as much as you can, I don’t know how you move out of yourself. So the minute you’re stuck in some kind of, you know, mild darkness. You know, the antidote is to just leap into a concern for somebody else. And then you move from other-centered, and part of your own practice is to arrive at being loving-centered, and then you go, oh my God, loving is my home. And now I’m never going to be homesick. And that becomes, you know, the place of joy. But it’s, that’s why, practice is so inextricably connected to being able to, you know, know my joy, yours, your joy complete where you can catch yourself. You’re cherishing with every breath you take. You’re not allowing yourself to get caught up in the storylines, is another thing that Pema Chödrön says, you get caught up in the storylines. So you’re you’re, you know, rehashing grievances and it is show and tell. You know, how do you move beyond that? Because then there’s a singularity to who God is. You know, God is just loving you. And then then people will say, well, isn’t God pleased with some things and displeased with other things? No, too busy. Too busy just adoring you. And then that’s kind of disquieting. People go, god, you know, here I’ve been measuring, and God is saying, what’s all the measuring about? You know?

Kate: I have to admit, I’ve been having a little bit of a hard time lately with, with sin. Like really thinking about it because I’m a very doctrinally boring person. We do bad things. I mean, I know there’s different atonement theories. There’s a wide variety of atonement, acceptable atonement theories, but I think it’s because most of the people who are so worried about it, like I really can’t see what they’ve done that’s so that’s so very wrong that it takes up that much time. I mean, certainly it’s taking it more of the church service than I feel like it needs to. And it kind of made me wonder if my understanding of sin is just that it’s out of order. Like you had this story about this man who had done some really terrible things, and then eventually he got a house. And when he got the house, he  said. He was talking to you, and he said, I can’t believe that I, that this is the life that I have. And it made him start to think about all the things he’d ever done wrong. And now at that moment, you, like, catch him to, like, restore him to a feeling of loving himself again. And I kind of wondered, isn’t it kind of wild that maybe confession can happen so much after restoration as opposed to the normal order of stuff, which is like, you’ve fallen short, say you’re sorry, God will repair, see you later. Go out into the world. That’s a long rant called I think I’m Not Presbyterian.

Greg: Yeah, well, I don’t, I remember that story, I think this is Ferney, who said, in the middle of the night called me and said, you know, for the first time in my life, I feel bad for all the things that I’ve done. So, I mean, just humanly you kind of go, well, that’s, you know, that feels healthy and right and good. You know, you want to move quickly beyond it, I think. Bu I think if you try to tap into the longing of God, you know, is it to be a God hoping that will be that will be less sinful or more joyful? And I think the joyful part is kind of the hope.

Kate: This, I don’t know how to describe her, this fancy lady once listened to me talk for a bit about God, and about life and whatever. And I have a very large shame and embarrassment button, so I always think that I’ve done something wrong. And she leaned forward and she put her hands on my cheeks and she said, Kate, I want you to believe in your own innocence. And I have to admit, I was like, I don’t know, I don’t really think that’s the language I want at all.

Greg: Yeah.

Kate: But I felt like when I listen to you, I’m getting so much closer to, because I wouldn’t say innocence, but I would say it’s how I feel when I put my hands on the cheeks of my, of my son with his sweet little giant face. And I would, and I would know and I would know immediately, like that secret of perfection that is his, the gift of his life in the world.

Greg: You know, like the whole word “sin,” “hamartia” (Greek), “missed the mark.” Well, everybody thinks the mark is, here’s perfection, in the middle of the, you know, bullseye. Oh and here, boy you missed the mark. You’re not there. But if you change the mark that we’re missing to joy. That, yeah, what you just did, as you would tell your kid or somebody, yeah, that, you could be more joyful, if you kind of chose this. And I just want joy. Like this kid today texting me, kid, he’s an adult, but, you know, he doesn’t want to go to rehab. And I’m going, oh, people just want you to be well and joyful. Nobody’s judging you. You know, look, heroin. About half the people in the building, you know, were heroin addicts. What are you talking about? Let’s go. You know, but it’s not about stop doing the bad thing or even shaking my head and, I’m so disappointed that you relapsed. It’s all, you know, the mark that we miss is joy. And don’t settle for happiness when you can have joy. And don’t settle for all these other things. It’s about joy. Come on. You know, no judgment is just joy.

Kate: It’s so emotional listening to you shrug at what other people are so ashamed of. I mean, like heroin, so what?

Greg: I believe it. Heroin, big whoop. There’s a chapter heading there somewhere.

Kate: Heroin: Big Whoop. The Father Boyle Story.

Greg: No, it’s more of a chapter.

Kate: Yeah.

Kate: We’re going to take a quick break to tell you about the sponsors of this show. We’ll be right back. The gift of a shrug when you were I mean, I just picture all the times when people must have been so scared to tell you or, I would be so scared to be, it’s that feeling where, you know, you’ve done something, you’re coming in late at night, and the idea that your parent would shrug instead of be furious at you.

Greg: A homie I know just hung himself. And this was just a few days ago, so I was talking to his, the mother of his children. They were separated. But, you know, and she was saying, you know, he was diagnosed as psychotic, she said. They were trying to get him to take meds and, and he was working a labor job. And then he did this. And she was, of course, distraught. But it was it was all about the she said something like, you know, before she could say suicide, she said he did what Judas did. So I knew that she was, it was so wrapped in, in a kind of a shame. And yet I said, oh my gosh, he never chose this mental anguish. It chose him. Now, I don’t understand fully how, how mental anguish will choose somebody and not somebody else. But he didn’t choose.

Kate: A lot of things you say after somebody feels like they’re unlovable anymore, I find it very emotional when you say something like, what a gift it would be to have a son like you.

Greg: I always do a variety of that.

Kate: It’s lovely.

Greg: But I always feel it, too. I never feel like it’s not true.

Kate: No.

Greg: You know. You know, and I have versions of it. I would have thought I had won the lottery if If I got a son like you. And I always feel that very deeply. You know, for all of them.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. We like long to hear these things that confirm even like our tiniest hope that we are lovable enough. That we are, that we are, the feeling that I’ve always noticed when people are sick is like when the bad thing is everywhere. That you are the bad thing. That you are the thing that happens to people.

Greg: Yeah.

Kate: Instead of this beautiful irreducibly lovable thing.

Greg: Yeah. So gang members taught me this so long ago. You know, when probation officers are saying, that kid’s evil, don’t waste your time on him and I go, it was so clear at the gate that that didn’t make any sense. That you could see, you know, the goodness and the hidden wholeness and and all that, and it’s not potential. But it really is goodness. And then you see complex trauma. Then you see real mental illness, and then you see stuck in a despair that they don’t know how to lift their heads above it. So you see all that and you see all the behavior that’s connected to all that. And you go, oh it’s about a lethal absence of hope. Oh, it’s about wound, not bad people. Oh, it’s about real mental health challenges that have led to all of these things. But once you get distracted by the behavior you can’t get underneath, the homies always say, find the thorn underneath, which I love. Because if there’s always a thorn, you know, your first impression is, this guy’s a dick, you know? But then you go, no, what’s this about? What language is this behavior speaking? And then all of a sudden, you can roll up your sleeves and say, I want to, I want to get at this and then heal the wound and warm the heart, you know?

Kate: Yeah. I don’t think we’re entering into a next few years where people are exercising that kind of problem solving. I think we’re I mean, the amount of like rhetoric that every other group is beyond hope, that there’s like there’s no point in communicating anymore. There’s no point in corporate problem solving. But meanwhile, like, I guess I always think about that list and the scripture, about like now who are you supposed to love? The, you know, the widow, the orphan, the imprisoned, just just like, who’s the list of the people who are going to, who are going to need the shelter of everybody else problem solving because some of us sometimes will need to be carried. And like, I guess I’m just worried that because people are putting less and less faith in our institutions as places where we can solve these problems, then we see the, we see the fallout from that almost immediately.

Greg: Yeah, except that, you know, even on trust. Trust of institutions.

Kate: Yeah.

Greg: For me, it’s it’s kind of a flag that that says we are not yet whole. Like this is an odd thing that’s happened in the last five years, maybe a little bit before Covid as well, but mainly since Covid, where homies will come and say, oh my god, my grandfather died. He was 91. He died in the hospital, and we think the hospital killed him, I go, well he was 91, you know, but do you know what I mean, there’s that kind of distrust, absolute distrust of the medical profession. And then you’re faced with this notion is, is somebody who’s distrustful, savvy or wounded? And I’m going with wounded. I think I think trusting people aren’t naive. They’re just healthier. You know, and that’s not a judgment call, that’s a health assessment. You know, if somebody is so distrustful, you know, i.e. conspiracy theories and deep state or whatever the hell, you know, you just go, no, this isn’t savvy, this is somebody who’s quite broken. And and our, you know, invitation is to walk people home to wholrness. Not in a kind of a, a cheap kind of way, except that, that you may be whole. Like my Heavenly Father is whole. Yeah. And so anyway.

Kate: I think one way to get out of feeling scared about the chaos of institutions or about tragedy is to just assume that God has a plan, that we just then have to find the clues and follow. I have to say I do find it really refreshing that you are not a God has a plan person, which brings me comfort and joy.

Greg: Yeah. I mean, I don’t believe in God’s plan. I believe that, I believe in, the singularity of God’s loving us. And then that is this clarifying thing. That says, okay, He loves us so much that we, you know, are being directed always to joy. And then so that decides kind of what happens. So, you know, I believe God protects me from nothing. And sustains me in everything. So then you kind of, you stay anchored in the sustenance and then we become sustenance for each other. We become God’s sustenance in the world. That’s how it’s supposed to be. So I always wince, you know, homies always say God has a plan. Everything happens for a reason. I don’t believe any of those things ever, you know? And so sometimes if I have a moment where I can talk about it, you know, with the homie, I usually don’t, because usually they’re saying that at a moment of great upheaval, you know? You know, so I’m not going to say bullshit, it doesn’t work that way. But when it’s quieter, I will kind of say, yeah, I don’t think that’s how it works because it gets us into trouble. Endless are the text messages with a photograph of a car that’s totaled sent to me by a homie. And then he’ll say, I was in this car with my two kids and we got out without a scratch. God is good. And I don’t say it then, you know, but if one of the kids had been killed, now what do you say? Because you can’t have that both ways. If God is good because you were saved, then God is a jerk if one of the kids is killed. So, it’s a set up. You know, I have a friend who always says we have to upset the setup, you know, which I think is kind of a goal. You know, where you can kind of say, no, let’s chip away at this because this gets us into trouble. And so I never say things like, God is good. You know, I go, well, what else would God be? Of course, you know. But it also is kind of a reward structure. God is good to me because I’m a thoroughly good person and I do all the right things. And now I have a big house, you know? I don’t know. I don’t know how that works. I mean I’m not so versed in the prosperity gospel except to say it’s nonsense.

Kate: I like this hand.

Greg: Yeah.

Kate: I want to be more joyful in the way that you’re describing. It sounds like it’s like the byproduct of seeing through God’s eyes for a second, from getting out of your self, from letting go of the fear of not being enough or having enough and just being a part of loving and then being loved by other people. It sounds like there is a magic that happens when we do that, that bubbles up into something like joy. Am I saying that right?

Greg: Yeah, I mean, I think because we’re saved in the present moment, we have to be in the present moment. And it’s breathe in the spirit that delights in your being, and breathe it out because the world needs it. But a brief little story I have, one of my best friends is Paul, Paul Lipscomb. And I did his wedding and, and we’ve known each other for half a century. And he has a 40-year-old daughter. And she’s so severely disabled that she requires 24-hour care. And he can sign a little bit with her, but total care. And she can walk with difficulty and she’s always falling and, and her name is Catherine. Virtually every day at the end of the day, he rocks or in this huge rocking chair. For 40 years since she was a little tiny baby until now, she’s 40. And he was, we were on a Zoom connect once in a while, once a month. And he’s rocking her and she’s a gangly 40-year-old woman. And he says normally he will sing some kind of nonsensical ditty. And she just flails their arms and she screams with delight. She’s not having it today. She’s throwing the blanket over her head and she’s biting on her arm, signs. And he goes, oh, and he does a kind of calculation in his head as to the time of the month. And he’s going, I’m rocking my 40-year-old PMSing daughter. And, and I’m aware that there’s nothing missing here. And that’s it for me. It’s an awareness that there’s nothing, absolutely nothing missing in this present moment. Now, if you’re, you know, lamenting what happened yesterday, you’re missing the moment. Or if you’re fretful about what will happen tomorrow, you’re missing the moment. But he says here. There’s nothing missing here, which I think is a mystical, kind of, understanding of things. And that’s where the practice comes in, where you can stay anchored, breathing, here, cherishing, greeting, attentive. Only here and nowhere else. Really hard to do. Cherishing people is not hard. Remembering to cherish is really difficult. And so reminding ourselves to remember is kind of connected to our breathing.

Kate: Fine. I guess I’ll do that.

Greg: Yeah. Well, I would say that settles it.

Kate: I really like you so much.

Greg: Oh, I think you’re the best.

Kate: I’m so grateful for you always. This was a delight.

Greg: Yeah. Thank you. I was looking forward to this.

Kate: Well, I’m pretty sure that he’s a living saint. But actually, he would completely hate me calling him that. Because, as he says, it makes it seem like the work that he does is out of reach for other people, too. And that’s just it. Father Boyle has a way of speaking and telling stories and loving people that is contagious. He makes me believe that I can be a better kin to others. That I can practice compassion and forgiveness and that kind of no-matter-what-ness that he describes, that I can learn to see people’s inherent goodness, including my own. So here’s a blessing for practicing all of that. God, this is a hard one. How do I begin to love or even connect with someone so different from me? How do I bridge this gap? It feels just as wrong as the beliefs I pour. Blessed are we who want to be a part of the wild and beautiful experiment to find common humanity, who desire to come willingly into the gap that separates human from human. To love the stranger, especially the one you really don’t understand and secretly want to set straight. Blessed are we willing to stay in the gap, in the contradictions of what we can’t understand, to actively work on disproving our own intuitions about another. In order to begin to see what they see. Blessed are we swimming upstream against the current of our own human frailty, our fears and emotions, and willing to be wrong for a second, to reconsider and to hold to our integrity with kindness. Desiring to see the lay of the land and play the course instead of the one we wished it could be. And to discover that humility is what makes change possible. Grace is never neutral. It works backwards and forwards in time. Conspiring to make wrong right.

Kate: Well, lovelies, we want to hear from you. That’s the song I’m singing. Like Greg Boyle says, God protects me from nothing but sustains me in everything. I want to hear you finish the sentence. God may not have a plan, but. Isn’t that fun? So you want to, you want to play my game, answer the question: God may not have a plan, but. But what? Write me a note on social media. I’m @katecbowler. Or leave us a voicemail at (919) 322-8731. And hey, before you go, if there’s any chance that you could leave a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It only takes a couple of seconds and it makes a big difference to how people find the show. And a big thanks to my team and our partners for the work they put in on this project. Lilly Endowment, the Duke Endowment, Duke Divinity School. They support all of our projects. And this podcast is one of the very favorite things I do with other human beings. This is my incredible team, the boundless in energy, Jessica Ritchie, Harriet Putman, Keith Weston, Baiz Hoen, Gwen Heginbotham, Brenda Thompson, Iris Greene, Hailie Durrett, Anne Herring, Hope Anderson, Kristen Balzer, Elia Zonio and Katherine Smith. Who would I be without you? A steaming pile of garbage. You will not want to miss next week’s conversation. I sat down with the palliative care physician, Kathryn Mannix, and this is the most gentle, most transformative conversation I have ever had. I really mean it. You will not want to miss it. And sign up at katebowler.com/newsletter so you don’t miss an episode. We’ll talk to you next week, my loves. This is Everything Happens with me, Kate Bowler.