Jennifer Garner joins Kate Bowler for a conversation about happiness, joy, and the particular ache that shows up somewhere around midlife — when the disappointments start to outnumber the wins, and you’re still not who you thought you’d be by now.

They talk about what actually separates happiness from joy (hint: one requires everything to go right, the other doesn’t), the strange gift of a copperhead snake bite, why Jennifer went paragliding after her cancer diagnosis despite being terrified of heights, and what it means to be a “witness” instead of just a friend. 

Plus: religious upbringing and how it shapes how we experience joy, letting-go rituals, raising teenagers, and why older women deserve more credit for staying vivid, capable, and alive.

If you’ve ever felt like your life was supposed to add up by now and it just hasn’t — this one’s for you.