Kate Bowler:
There are moments in our lives that draw a line in the sand, stark befores and afters. We walk through a door or we are shoved through it and we can’t go back. Everything is different now, including us. This is Everything Happens and I’m Kate Bowler. And today I am talking to somebody I love and I trust and I admire. A friend who tells the truth because she’s learned the steep cost of living inside untruths. She knows what it is to lose the life she imagined. And she is brave enough to talk about what it took to build something new. My guest today is Jen Hatmaker. Even just saying her name, it makes me smile. She is truly one of the people who makes me laugh the most. She is just like she shines. She’s a best-selling author. She’s an award-winning podcaster. She’s amazing speaker. She’s written 14, that’s the actual number, books. Four of them, that four, have been New York Times bestsellers, no big deal. She also hosts the beloved For the Love podcast and the Jen Hatmaker Book Club. And her new book, Awake, is, I really will just have to say, like her bravest book. It’s this raw look at the unexpected end of her 26-year marriage and the really surprising ways. She is yet becoming. Jen, I am the most grateful to see your gorgeous face in front of me. Thank you so much for doing this.
Jen Hatmaker:
Oh my gosh, get serious, Kate. You can be like, hey, Jen, let’s just drive around in a 1989 Chevette and record a podcast into a tape recorder. I’d be like let’s go, broad. We ride a con, you know? I’ll do anything you ask.
Kate Bowler:
Our show will be called X-Evangelicals in Coffee.
Jen Hatmaker:
Oh, good job. Oh, that was quick. Oh, look at that comedic timing coming in hot.
Kate Bowler:
I really love thinking about our old selves because in the very early days, in among the earliest times we met, I was really deep in research for this book on Christian female celebrities. And you were right in the middle of that. Yeah, I would. You’ve had this very public life. Your husband was the pastor of your church, which that you weren’t just like Jen. You were a full two for one, the pastor’s wife. Deal, just a very expected script, very expected limitations. So I guess it makes me want to start there. How did that role shape the way that you understood yourself and your marriage?
Jen Hatmaker:
I guess in every way, as far as I knew, I thought ministry was always a two for one. Like, that was just how it was, you know, the wives were a part of the package deal. Even if they had their own full-time job or whatever, that, that wasn’t their second job. And so, you, know, I went to a Baptist college, God bless, and we all got married in college. Like in college, not after college, it says I was 19, like 19 Brandon was 21. Like what in the world? Our campus was flooded with ministry majors, all boys, of course. Um, lead us, come on. I don’t even, I don’t even know if girls could be in that major at the time. And so, you know, I got married so young and It was just prepared to play that role to the highest degree of my ability. And so thus I did and it shaped everything about me. I mean, it shaped the way I moved in the world. It shaped the edges to which I felt I could go. And it shaped my theology, of course. I could just sometimes perish. When I think back to some of the things that I said to girls and young women and, you know, I couldn’t see beyond it. That was a very myopic view of the world. That’s the only world I knew. So I thought that was the whole world.
Kate Bowler:
I wish I had the like Barbie speech in front of me. Remember the one where it’s like strong, but not too much, like pleasing, but so many ways to try to be more, yet always feeling never enough. And Jen, you are truly one of the most deeply charming people I’ve ever met in real life. Imagine how much pressure that was to embody all these qualities, but not be able to hold formal power or feel like you knew you had your own set of stable things that didn’t depend on you just being kind and charismatic and interesting all the time.
Jen Hatmaker:
It took a while. It took me a while to get there because I was unwilling, unable to press on any of those forms, probably until, what would be fair here? Honestly, later in my thirties, so I went kind of a long time. I did a lot of adult life before I was even able to admit. Some of the tension and like the cognitive dissonance I was experiencing. I don’t think I could even admit it. I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t know if it had a solution. I felt defects on me, it’s limiting effects. And then I felt my relationships start to strain. I knew I had more to do and not just more to do I knew there was more of me to be. And I just simply did not know. How I was going to do that and maintain my world as I knew it and turns out I didn’t. I couldn’t.
Kate Bowler:
And just to give people a sense of like the scale of your world, like, I’ve never seen arenas that big full of women, like the ones that came to hear you speak, like enormous impact, huge numbers, and really like a feeling of being at the very center of a sprawling subculture that had like conferences and books and networks and a million people watching you and a billion people with opinions about what you were doing. Like the first book I wrote was just all megachurch pastors. And I thought I had written a pretty complete view of religious authority in the United States. And then I took a second and realized, no, I mean, I wasn’t even looking at all of like what we might call like soft power, which is to say real power. Which is, who is turning hearts and minds? Who is everybody, who’s on everyone’s bedside table? And it turns out it was. It was all the women not authorized to be spiritually in charge, but spiritually in charge nonetheless.
Jen Hatmaker:
Super interesting, right? I remember watching or hearing, however it came across my like purview, like Beth Moore, arguably the lead woman in that world, that with the largest amount of listeners, followers, learners underneath her leadership. And I remember her stand in an arena to your point. 30,000 people in there, and she would get up and say something like, I’m here under the authority of my husband. Or if it wasn’t her husband, it would have been, I am here under the authority of my home pastor. And I remember thinking. What? That for me was the beginning of a lot of unraveling around the patriarchy represented in church, in Christian culture.
Kate Bowler:
There’s these ways that we learn to be quietly acceptable and not disturb the peace. And I wonder, looking back, like, how did you first know that that was starting to cost you? And in what way.
Jen Hatmaker:
At the time, when my husband was on staff at a church, that was this is before we started our own. So kind of on staff of the church. And it was the kind of church that’s like mega. It’s Southern Baptist, but that’s not the name. You know, and so because we were like, not like the old kind of Southern Baptist. I got to like preach once a year, you know, usually Mother’s Day, of course. And so me at the time that felt like an enormous expansion of my possibility and I mean this was preaching on a Sunday morning in a church with the men in the room you know like that was a massive departure from anything I so low to the ground I would have said back then oh well I’m you know I’m in a place where women are allowed you know now I can see that I can say that with such different eyes, but it was really the internet where. Um I encountered my first like really big wave of opposition and it was you know the the reformed bros and they just they were not a fan of Jen Hatmaker.
Kate Bowler:
I remember this. Not a fan. Obsessive patrolling, policing. Oh boy. Reviews on reviews. Oh boy!
Jen Hatmaker:
Was I here for the fight? I was like, well, it’s 8 a.m. Time to go on Twitter and fight with a recent seminary grad. You know what I mean? That seems like a really good use of my time and I’m here for it.
Kate Bowler:
I hear you though, because I mean, there were so the scary things about soft power about influence or charisma is it can be taken away so easily. It’s not like you just get to disappear into a role. Like you had to defend yourself over and over and again while also being taught not to trust yourself.
Jen Hatmaker:
Did we make it out? How did any of us survive it? The amount of internal like just dissonance that I lived with at that time because I knew I had this one sense of just like spiritually um who I was and how I was created and sort of what my my work in the world was going to look like. But then I had the other voice, like the gremlin on my shoulder going, am I getting this wrong? Should I be handing this back to the men after all? I was earnest enough to sincerely not want to get it wrong. I mean, I really did it. I did not want a lead wrong. Feeling like I was starting to break from the community that raised me was disorienting, for sure, at best. But that, you know, when you start tugging on that thread. There’s more and there was more and if you know, sort of the the communities of disenfranchisement under the umbrella of God are numerous and linked and so all of a sudden they started rubbing up against each other. You know, and going, wait a minute, if women are this like subordinates, and maybe that isn’t right, maybe that’s not biblical, maybe there’s another way to interpret that, to consider that in a faithful way. What about all this tricky racism in here? What about sexuality? Is there any chance if one of them was… Fertile soil for abuse and disempowerment, the others are also. So let’s begin the off-ramp.
Kate Bowler:
The great attempted canceling of that time, I mean, it wasn’t just like a quiet separation. It was like a public theological divorce. And I don’t, it did not sound to me like you were trying to divorce anyone.
Jen Hatmaker:
I had been around long enough to see what happens to dissenters and that, that belonging is the currency. That’s it. It is, it is given and it is revoked and it’s powerful. You know, being dramatic has never stopped me a day in my life, as you well know, but at the risk of being incredibly malgeratic, that season broke my heart. It absolutely broke my heart. And it was very overwhelming. I don’t know if any of us are built to be at the center of that much attention, period, much less negative attention. That’s too many eyes. That’s to many people writing about you. I can’t even count how many people would text me or email me and say, you were the subject of our entire Sunday mornings. Like all of it, like, but to say nothing of the endless articles and the just, the hit pieces of it. It was just really, it was, it felt scary. It felt scary, I know that is like, come on, the internet is not scary, but it felt
Kate Bowler:
When your nervous system’s scary, I bet.
Jen Hatmaker:
That’s what I mean. I immediately lost everything that I had. So that was, it was over. Like, it wasn’t like, whoa, let’s see if we can kind of duct tape this together and piecemeal some, it was just over.
Kate Bowler:
And everybody knows that writers have lots of options, and if they get kicked out of their community of belonging, that they’ve got other marketable skills.
Jen Hatmaker:
Truly. I mean, I’ve always just said I would be the absolute first to go on the Oregon trail. First to go. I have nothing useful. No woodworking and no general foraging. No, I have no important useful skills. So if I could not put my fingers on a laptop and type words. I’m out. Like, what else to do? That’s all I know how to do. So, there was a freefall there, a free fall session, where I was like, well, okay, I didn’t have regret. Being misaligned that last year was just, that was the worst thing that could be. So I like, I would rather be unemployed. I’d rather be employed. I rather burn my career to the ground. And just sort out some sort of quiet life, but I wasn’t sure like who would have me will somebody have me or is there a place for me is it and turns out the world is bigger than that subculture I just I didn’t know yet.
Kate Bowler:
We’re going to be right back after a break to hear from our sponsors. Don’t go anywhere. I imagine there was still a tremendous amount of pressure for you if you’re going to be theologically different to be good in different ways. I keep thinking about how often I’ve wondered if women are better at being married than being happy. How did it feel? To feel like you had to be very performatively good and to just kind of have questions inside of your own house and heart. Oh, true.
Jen Hatmaker:
Oh, it’s interesting to look back and see my that my had the same impulse like, okay, I need to make sure that I am clear that I’m still faithful, that I still believe in and love God, that i am still credible, that still am a reliable spiritual authority. And that certainly includes running a tight home operation, you know? And to be fair, at the time, my marriage was in a healthier spot than it got to, so it wasn’t a complete charade. That wouldn’t be fair. That would be true. We had art together over the course of our sort of spiritual evolution, and so we made a lot of those decisions in lockstep. And that informed how we led our church. A lot of that was in true partnership and individually at the time, there was more health in each of us as partners, but it was pretty quickly thereafter. I wasn’t the only one who lost my career as it was. I was married to a person who also had a career in church leadership and had written books on church leadership. I was a part of that world. And so we both took a pretty big hit when we were invited from the culture and community we had only known, only, like for our entire adult lives and our whole marriage. So, we handled those losses differently. It affected us in different ways. And our careers rebounded at different levels and in a different pace and direction and to degree of success. And so that was actually harmful. That was a harmful time.
Kate Bowler:
I didn’t think of that, Jen, because you were able to connect outside of the subculture, but I imagine just within the narrow confines of church world.
Jen Hatmaker:
Because I had built so much online where it is wildly more diverse. That is a great swath of people. There’s more paths out there. In church leadership, it’s just the one. I had more room to recover. I had places to expand. That was the beginning of a deterioration. And it wasn’t the only piece, but it was the start. It started becoming evident privately, quietly, behind the curtain. We’re not OK. We are not doing OK. I couldn’t exactly tell why or what exactly was going wrong. But all my alarm bells, you know, all my alarm bells were going off. But, you know, marriage and family is that’s a top rung of the ladder. Also, that’s my family. There’s nothing more I wanted in the whole world than to have a long, successful, beautiful marriage in the whole world. Like, oh, our five kids, like, I had a vision for our whole story. Like, we will rock the grand babies on the porch. This will be the landing zone for all of our children and their partners and their children. And I deeply wanted that in a personal way. And so we’re really willing, I think, to. Lie to our own selves when the story that we have is deeply challenging the story that we want. And I just couldn’t get there. I couldn’t get there
Kate Bowler:
Do you get very like quiet inside when you’re scared? Like I don’t wanna look at this directly. I’m just gonna do this.
Jen Hatmaker:
That’s my exact response. I just froze. I mean, I just frozen because the side effects of it were caustic in the house. Crisis sometimes just grabs you by the throat.
Kate Bowler:
I mean, the stakes being so high, and who can imagine a life outside of every dream?
Jen Hatmaker:
I couldn’t. I was so deeply unhappy, so deeply. We were so disconnected. You cannot imagine it. But I’m telling you, until the day I found out that he had a different life and he had a girlfriend and there was a whole thing going on and had been going on, which helped make sense of some of the confusion. It helped when I kept going, I don’t understand all these things I’m seeing. Well, then I can understand more of what I have to. However, To that day, I just kept thinking we’re going to pull through. We we just are like I just knew we were. I just know we were I knew we could. I knew I thought we wanted to. I thought, we get there and we’d look back and go, Whoa, that season was not good. That was foolish. Things that are broken don’t just naturally get better. They don’t. And wishful thinking doesn’t get you anywhere and it’s not helpful not only is it not helpful it’s harmful like my disengagement wasn’t neutral it did its own harm it made things worse not better not even the same so these are these are all wonderful lessons i can look because they’re in my rear view mirror and i’ve had a therapist who doesn’t let me just sit there and blame somebody else and it’s so stupid of her you know I’m like, no, I came in here to talk to you about somebody else’s choices and how bad they were and how hurt they made me. And then you’re supposed to listen and agree. And she’s like, let’s look at your patterns. I’m, like, lady. Not interested in that. Geez, it wasn’t my fault.
Kate Bowler:
I mean, our young, sweet, dumb selves, right? Who knew what we knew? Like, I was also in the young bride club of like a month after graduation. And I think back on that person who then only knew that world and only knowing one way can create so much grief. I just imagine if the person that you were with you only began with as a little baby, that you might have to go back to stuff you just didn’t know.
Jen Hatmaker:
Oh my gosh, we grew up together. Like I had never had an independent moment of my adult life. I wasn’t even an adult when I got married. I was a teenager. I was so malformed in some areas that I did not even realize that. I didn’t even realize that I was until all of a sudden I was in charge of my entire life by myself. I was parenting by myself, I realized at that point how much I had phoned in. How much I had abdicated, it was humiliating.
Kate Bowler:
I love that you are so honest about just some of the power we give away without thinking like around money or like you bought your first car. You’d never had your own stuff before. That must have been so weird to go to the dealership and be like, okay, here we are, just middle age.
Jen Hatmaker:
Overwhelming. It was so overwhelming. I’m just telling you, I think back to that time of how often I was texting my friends, like how do you get the title to your car? You know? Like, I was like, so property taxes are like, just tell me, tell it to me like one more time. You know, like, it was just so all encompassing. I had to figure it out. You don’t just get to not know how to pay your bills. You don’t just get like not know how to file taxes. And so I just figured it all out with the help of so many people. So many people were my helpers. And then I got just to the end of the year and just went, nothing’s too hard, nothing’s to hard. We can learn anything, it’s never too late. We’re not too stupid. Like I’m not too far gone, I’m I’m too old. Like that year ended up really giving me back to myself and it launched an independence in my life But bye. Look I cherish it so much I am I’m so grateful for what that season gave me even though it was like I cried a lot my car you know about you know when you just cry the car it’s just a safe place A lot of tears in the driveway.
Kate Bowler:
It’s a portable confessional is how I treat it. That’s exactly right. This is my secret feelings chamber. We’re going to take a quick break to tell you about the sponsors of this show. We’ll be right back. There’s so many ways where our kids show us the way. And then also these truly terrible moments where we realize there’s so little that we can protect them from. What has that been like watching them navigate their own grief and losses?
Jen Hatmaker:
Oh, it’s just disastrous. Yeah, it was just disastrous I I got the gift of learning about co-dependency in my own recovery. Right, exactly. Thank you for knowing that that is the right response to. I didn’t even really know what that word meant.
Kate Bowler:
No, it’s just helping other people. It’s helping other people have their feelings. And it’s helpful. And that’s what the word means is helpful.
Jen Hatmaker:
It’s not a mess, man, it’s, yeah. It’s trying to make everybody’s lives better. That’s all.
Kate Bowler:
Well, 100% I’m helping. I’m an Enneagram too, I help.
Jen Hatmaker:
I started learning about codependency in relation to my marriage that was over. So I was like, oh, OK, let’s see where these tendencies that I certainly have were showing up in my marriage. But the thing is, is if you’ve got it, you’ve got it. And I very quickly scanned over here to the right and went, oh my god, I do this in parenting. I am codependent everywhere. It’s not just with the one thing. Like if that’s your deal, that’s you’re deal. And so that was a bummer. My kid’s pain was just stinking me. Like I just felt sunk under it. Like they didn’t ask for this. They didn’t deserve this. That I didn’t want their home to collapse right here in like late teen, early adulthood, right? When they really need us to be stable under, I, I was just so, I was so bad about my kid’s sadness and about all that they had lost and were losing. And, and at the time I thought, I don’t know what’s coming back. I don’t know what if any of this is ever going to be okay. I had been with my daughter Sydney at the time who was let’s see I think she was about 20 Then she was saying something about how she felt which was you know Devastating and I because I just So wanted to manage the outcomes. I wanted to get us to a happier place and I also wanted it to be a certain way that I wanted it like So I was kind of hustled or I was I was leading the witness and well, you know, one day you’re going to for sure want this as if I know for sure what she wants at all. One day, you’re going to wish it was whatever. And I remember her finally just saying, Mom, when you respond to me like that, I feel so lonely. She said I feel like I am the only one still hurting, still confused and still angry. And you are so busy me busy hustling me along to some stronger better reconnected future uh that i just feel so alone in my pain and i took that into therapy and my therapist said this is she said all those terrible things about how kids have to suffer just like we do just like everyone does just like every human does and my kids aren’t like the special ones that won’t the special case that and she just said this in your job you’re out of your depth you don’t get to fix it you can’t as turns out you don’t to beat it up you don t get to write around it it’s not yours it’s not yours at all so she said all you need to remember when it comes to your kids is is comfort over coaching. And I was like, oh boy, this is not my forte. Is not my forte. I am a coach. And so That’s a really good distinction. They navigated like we all have to. They naviged it. They worked out their pain. They faced, they did it. And it’s a terrible system. It’s a tear. Your son will probably be the exception.
Kate Bowler:
Oh my God. Yeah, this is the whole plan. But I really hear it in your voice where it’s just one thing to say, this took my life apart. I suffered. But, I just know with all of my cancer journey that if the subject turns to my perfect son, the answer always in art has to be. He was untouched, nothing cost him, because it feels unbearable to ever imagine it was shared. Yeah. And yet, they bear it. They bear it.” Oh, that’s so wise, Jen. The other thing that made me, I felt very teary hearing about the love of your friends. Man, like your friends, this is like the hope that when we fall apart, that we are alone, there was this absolutely deeply moving moment where you had to have a very difficult conversation with your ex-husband and then you got like the sweetest text. Will you tell me about it?
Jen Hatmaker:
Oh, my gosh. I love this part. This was very early in. I mean, this was maybe on day three of catastrophe. So, I mean it was at the absolute beginning of the story. And he had already he was out. He moved out on the first day and never came back. And because what I had said was I need the whole truth. I’m not, we’re not going to talk at all until that’s what you’re about to tell me. So I knew it was going to be a very hard conversation. And so of course, all my friends knew nobody had slept or left our side. Um, it’s about maybe 10 minutes before we’re supposed to meet. And I get a text from two of my best friend’s husbands. Now these boys are like brothers. I mean, they’re not remote. You know, they were like brothers, but so the husbands texted me and said, listen, you’ve got to do this part by yourself. We’re sorry. I know it’s going to be hard, but you’re the only one that can go out there and have this conversation. However, we are parked. Right outside your house and we’re just going to sit here in the car until it’s over and we just want you to know that you’re not alone and it wasn’t because I was in danger it was I wasn’t like a physical danger that wasn’t the thing of the conversation they just wanted to know our bodies are 30 feet away and so if you start feeling like you are all alone in there hearing the worst things you’ve ever heard. We just want you to know we’re on the street. You can look out your window and see us in the car. I mean, just come on. Come on, we can survive anything when people love us like that.
Kate Bowler:
You really have a lot of love in your life right now. And there’s a Tyler. There’s a handsome, charismatic man who gets to hold the babies in your and high-five you when you’re sad. How are you noticing that you are with this new kind of sweetness in love? How does it kind of feel stacked up alongside all of the hard-won wisdom of what’s been?
Jen Hatmaker:
Oh boy. Talk about the surprise of my life. I mean, my last first date was 1992. So it’s not like I have any sort of adult experience with men. You’re like, new kids on the block, we’re hot. I mean, exactly. That felt so far away and so impossible. I feel stunned by it. Like we’re, it’s so crazy because we’re over the three-year mark together and it’s just such a delight. It’s just a delight and it such a joy and there’s such an ease to it. And some of that, I mean, let me be fair. We don’t have the pressures of building a life together. We’re 50. So we don’t have to build a life. We just, we already did that. We just get to live one now. And so there’s less of a burden laid on our shoulders, of course, but also this is a better version of me, for sure. I often think I’m a better girlfriend to Tyler than I was a wife to my ex-husband. And I’ve just learned so much and I stared down my own behaviors and my own responses and patterns and so thus I keep I get this relationship that is just it’s it’s got a lightness to it that I can not get over I just cannot get over it my marriage never had a light to it we had long seasons of Connection. And health, but it was never an easy marriage, if that makes sense. I didn’t have an easy partner, just kind of a hard partner in general. So just sometimes we just look at each other. We’re like, I guess like, we’re just gonna keep having fun. Like I guess we’re gonna, this is just what we get to keep doing. Yeah, it’s just been such a nice, incredible surprise but I want to be clear that I do not feel healed because of another man. I’ve knew enough to know I can’t put that pressure on his shoulders to make me happy again, right? To make me feel safe again, to help me know that I actually am valuable and like desirable again. Like that’s too much work for anybody. No man can fulfill that. So because I don’t have to put that burden on his shoulders, he just gets to be himself. And he can do it imperfectly and I can do it imperfectely and so it just kind of gets to be like…
Kate Bowler:
So grateful. Lucky me. Jen, I’ve known you now in happiness. I’ve know you in sadness. And I will just say I really like both of them. Thanks for having me. One thing I really love about Jen is it’s not just about what she lost, it’s about what she chose next. She reinvented herself, not because it was easy, but because the alternative was to live a life that was no longer true. She reminds us that sometimes we just have to give ourselves permission to start again. Try again. Start something new that maybe it’s not too late to have that hard conversation. Not too late to take ourselves seriously, not too late to become kind of steady friend who sits in someone’s driveway reminding them that they’re not alone. We might not get to choose what happens to us, but like Jen, we do get to chose sometimes what we do with our pain. And maybe if we’re lucky, we’ll discover just like she did that even after the life that you thought you would have disappears. There are still delicious, unexpected joys waiting on the other side. If you want a blessing, that was a very Canadian so. Do you like that? That’s the so from my heart of hearts. Here’s a blessing from my book of meditations. It’s the one called Have a Beautiful, Terrible Day. This is a blessing for when life feels completely out of control. There was a time when I had a grip on things. I had few decent plans, even a theory or two, about how to keep my balance on this spinning planet. And then, and then, and then life shook me loose. I blinked only to find myself hurtling through time. Through a darkness I couldn’t fathom, but surely I must’ve been there all along. The truth echoing in my ears, we come undone. Things fall, gravity itself. At this speed, well-intentioned invitations to stop and smell the roses or welcome the surprises of the day sound dainty, charming even, belonging to another time and place. They can’t reach me. I am throwing out an anchor, out into the ether, and Lord, you catch it. Grab it, tether it, pull me into your orbit. Let my eyes adjust and absorb the truth of the beautiful, terrible world you made and we shared with the people we love. When I feel the ground pitching and my stomach lurching, convince me once again that the vastness of this universe is a comfort to me somehow. No matter how tiny my place in infinite space, I will stay at the center of your love. Alright my darlings, you can find more blessings and reflections at Substack where I am honestly just having a really nice time because I get to see all your community comments that makes me so happy. It’s at KateBowler.Substack.com. And if you have a second and if you don’t mind leaving us a review on Apple or Spotify, it really helps people find us. Okay. And if want to just see this enormous face, come find me on YouTube. You can watch every episode. I’m Kate Bowler. This is a team project full of people I just adore. Everything Happens is full of people like Jessica Richie, Harriet Putman, Keith Weston, Anne Herring, Hailie Durrett, Megan Crunkleton, Anna Fitzgerald Peterson, Elias Zonio, and Katherine Smith. And this is Everything Happens with me, Kate Bowler.
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