Kate Bowler: Hello, friends. This is Everything Happens, and I’m Kate Bowler. So today we’re going to do something a little different. I’m joined by the brilliant Kelly Corrigan. We do this every year. We like to take stock of both the beauty and the heartbreak that we’ve carried, but how those moments can be so good or so hard and how they shape the year ahead in surprising ways. We do crappies. We do happies. Last week we shared the crappies. And today is our chance for us to reflect on those beautiful moments that carried us. Our happies, if you will. It’s so weird, I’ve never said crappy so much in public. But here we are, guys, just keeping it real. Kelly, we get to be happy together, which is so ridiculous.
Kelly : Can we do it? I mean, times are hard like, can we muster it?
Kate: I feel ready to be happy with you and only you. Okay. Really my personal happy from this year is that I made some really clutch new friends. People who are, you want to call after something to go over the funny joke again so that they can hear it. And they’re also people who are so interesting in their own right that I feel really excited to get to know them better, even though they are in professions I know 0% about. So I can’t even come in smart. I just come in like, What’s your job?
Kelly : Yeah. Tell me more.
Kate: I really, really, really like it. I’ve had a new guy, friend, and I’ve had a lot of, like, very fun guy friends. But this one is, like, the probably the nicest person I’ve ever met.
Kelly : There’s like five Kate Bowler guy friends right now that are like, what? Did she just say that like, did she perceive me to be nice?
Kate: I love jerks so much because they’re so funny and withholding, which I find hilarious. But this one is like he’s got great male friends. He’s so loving to his wife. Like, I feel like I’m meeting a buddy, but a role model, which is kind of blowing my mind.
Kelly : Well, that’s my favorite kind of friend is like some one you feel slightly flattered to even be in the relationship for like wow I guess they like me, and they, like, they keep writing me back like, we’re going to have lunch. They want to go for a walk. Like, this is crazy. And you kind of act like you’ve been there before, you know, like, whatever. Yeah, definitely. We should definitely get together. Where did you meet these new friends? Because this is something I feel like everybody wants. So maybe if there’s any how to’s here to be surface, we should surface them.
Kate: Well, we met as, like, not no mutual friends, just like at a conference kind of thing. He just told a funny story. And then I offered to be useful, even though I know that I’m not going to be useful to him. But I think I did a good job of doing, like, a couple funny follow ups, just to make it clear like, hey, and also I’m not very subtle where it’s like third interaction I’m like, Hey, I really want to be your friend. I really like you. I’m pretty like, having been very unpopular throughout most of my young life, I feel like I’m not going to play it cool. Like, why start now? So, yeah, I did advertise that. I think he’s great, but I’m pretty good at the consistent follow up. So I think that’s really helped. And when you escalate it from like the email to the text or the text to the phone call, I felt like I was willing to take the jump. But it’s been amazing so far. And now we like do fun family things together.
Kelly : That’s so cool.
Kate: I don’t know. I think I mostly took the risks, but I’m feeling, I’m feeling the reward.
Kelly : Yeah. Yeah. I have a new friend this year, too.
Kate: Tell me.
Kelly : Christy Turlington, the supermodel who hates the term supermodel, is my new friend. I went to Tanzania on this learning trip to see all the work that’s being done around reducing maternal mortality.
Kate: Wow.
Kelly : So we get to meet, you see all these different, like rural hospitals in Tanzania where they’re improving, you know, the labor and delivery experience and they’re training doulas and they’re trying to come up with more OB-GYNs, and then more ways to get from your village to the resources and then moving resources closer to the villages, even just the simplest of resources, like a birthing room that’s clean with water, etc.. And, you know, it’s it’s a thrilling problem to concern yourself with because it’s very doable. Like 97% of maternal deaths are avoidable. Like, we totally know how to do it. So it’s satisfying. So anyway, she’s been doing this thing Every Mother Counts for 15 years now. And, you know, there’s just nothing about me that says you’re going to be friends with a supermodel. Like, I’m not in shape. I don’t exercise. I cut my own hair, I color my own hair. I tweeze my own eyebrows. You know, I put on like the wipe on tan, like, you know, I mean, I’m just I’m kind of tacky visually I’m a little bit tacky. Like, the clothes I’m wearing today, head to toe are from Target.
Kate: I’m really stuck on you cutting your own hair.
Kelly : I love cutting my own hair. I might even cut, like, the whole hair today. It’s way too long for me. I feel like it’s like witchy poo hair. But I live in New York City half the year and I can’t bear to spend what it costs to get your haircut in New York City. It’s just like a horrifying number. So I think I might just trim it myself. And then when I get to Bozeman, I go to Leann, and Leann is much so she can like clean it up. I don’t know. It’s probably not a good idea, but nonetheless, it might happen because I don’t have to do anything public between now and the end of the year. So whatever, if my family thinks that my hair is a little funny, whatevs. So anyway, \I really came to love her. And she lives, like, three blocks from me, which means that I can you know, I always wanted to replace these two friends of mine from Piedmont who lives, like, four minutes away. And when I moved away from California, what I gave up was like being four minutes away from Beth and Betsy. And then I finally found a four minutes away friend who I can say, do you want to walk? Like, what are you doing right now? And that it’s an interesting person with like some crazy life experience all better. But mostly it’s just that she’s kind of a lovely, relaxed, deeply relaxed person, really easy to make plans with, think with. She’s super caring. So that’s my new friend. But the other big personal happy for this year was getting involved in Ted. So I gave a Ted Talk, which was very satisfying in that you have to think super hard about one thing over and over again. And you know, when I write books like I’m not I’m not meeting constantly with my editor, I’m, I’m developing things alone and then I deliver it. And then a couple of months later, it comes back with some notes. And this was like I had somebody to hold my hand the whole time.
Kate: They like think with you. They have all kinds of strong opinions about like what makes a good, strong, sharp lede or…
Kelly : Yeah. And it’s more just like encouraging. The woman I worked with was like, particularly talented. Her name’s Corey and she really knew how to give me my next assignment. So she never was like a line by line person, but she would say, have you thought about blank? And that’s it. And I’d be like, that’s good. That’s really helpful. I will go think about blank. And then you layer it in and then I’d say, now I, I feel like this whole section is too long or this could be a little too dark for people. And so anyway, writing with her was a great experience. And then, you know, she’s right there. She stands on the side with you, you know, and she’s like practically, like, holding my hand. And then you go up and you do it, and she’s the first person to hug you and you come off and and I got to bring one of my kids to Ted, and that was extra special. And then there’s just a lot of people there who, it’s like adult summer camp. Like, it’s like brain camp. And so there’s really, it’s a super warm environment. And I went on Thursday, it starts on Monday morning, I went Thursday night and I was like the last thing to happen before we all went to the big party where they have the bands and the dancing and whatever. And so that piece of it to like get shot out of a cannon into the party with my daughter who like loves to dance and is a total extrovert. I mean, we had so much fun.
Kate: With your kid. You could probably feel her pride and then feel how scared you probably were to go on. And feel the light hysteria. I’m like, holy crap, I’m going to do this.
Kelly: Yeah. And I actually saw her when I was giving it, like, I found her in the crowd. You know, it’s a couple of thousand people, so there’s a chance you won’t but all of a sudden I was just kind of moving around like you’re supposed to do. And there she was. And I was like, I almost wanted to be like hi! And she help me figure out, I said this little joke before I started, which you’re not really supposed to do, but I was like, I think I’m going to say this first. Ans she was like you definitely should. And I was like, okay, good.
Kate: What was the joke?
Kelly: Well, it was a funny, true story as I said, this talk is for my mom. And even though when I called to ask her like, hey, have you ever heard of Ted? T-E-D? She said, oh god, Kelly, don’t tell me it’s another virus. Isn’t that great?
Kate: That’s so great. We’re going to be right back after a break to hear from our sponsors. Don’t go anywhere.
Kelly: Like to slide right into my inner circle andmy next happy is very shortly after Ted with almost no warning, my mother kind of engineered a way to bring her life to a close that was right for her. And I was the witness to this thing. So she got something that she could have recovered from. She got an infection, diverticulitis, and it got bigger and bigger, and she went to the E.R. for pain. And they told her what it was and they gave her some antibiotics and she didn’t take them. And she didn’t tell anybody. And she lost 40 pounds. And by the time I got to her on Mother’s Day, she was like 103 pounds. And it was time to go. And we went to the hospital and she you know, she just masterminded, really, I don’t think it’s overstating it to say that she kind of masterminded this exit that felt right to her and she knew. She’s almost 85, which is almost exactly how old my dad was when he died. She died in the same place in hospice and that these doctors kept coming in to her all male. My mom didn’t go to college. Tiny little lady in this bed. And they’re saying, Mrs. Corrigan, most of them talk so loud, you know, they’d be like Mrs. Corrigan, and her forehead would scrunch, and I’d be like, you can just talk in a normal voice. And, Mrs. Corrigan, do you understand that if you take that drain out of your back, that your infection may return. Mrs. Corrigan, do you understand that if you don’t finish the antibiotics, they’re trying to give her I.V. antibiotics, the ear infection will return. And if your infection returns, you’re likely to go into sepsis. And if you go into sepsis, you’re likely to die. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do like three in a row. She just stared him down. And as I said in the eulogy like I was so impressed that I found myself like, sit up straighter like you would if you were in the presence of a general. Like she just called her shot. And I think a thing that’s been amazing for me to realize is that you could be in a 57 year relationship with someone, and the last ten days could have this super big impact on how the whole thing goes down in your mind and in your memory. And in reality, like I learned even then, even in those ten days, I learned more and saw more and understood more and got more. I mean, I got so much tenderness in that time. And I just I hope for everyone. I really hope for everyone that their parent has some control, that they are not like a victim of health care that wants to keep them alive at absolutely any cost and at any quality of life levels. It was like perfect. It was a perfect death.
Kate: Wow. What a woman.
Kelly : Truly. Truly.
Kate: That must’ve created so much awe.
Kelly : Precisely.
Kate: Natural awe and then like to see the summation of her story really put her at the very center. That must have been really deeply moving.
Kate: She told Claire. Claire went to stay with her for, like, five nights because Claire’s school year at Virginia had ended and she got dropped off in Philly by a buddy. And then we were coming down for Mother’s Day. And so there was a five day gap there. And she’s like, I’ll just stay with Jammy. I was like, Great. And she said to me, you know, I talked to her a bunch that week and she said, guess what Jammy said yesterday? She said, I miss my mother. And I was like, wow. Like, that’s. Like it’s happening. She’s imagining.
Kate: Yeah. Starting to reach over.
Kate: Switching from the people who are here to the people who are there.
Kate: Yeah.
Kelly: Yeah.
Kate: Oh man. Some of those, like, really precious little glimpses, I know it all the same. My grandpa’s always been a very special person in my life, but in part because he was so incredibly obstinate and almost every story had some kind of element of heroism. And also him being demoted in a in a just a really public way. So, you know, he went from like flying bomber pilots to being forced to be in charge of like where the milk trucks would go in World War Two, because he just always found a way to, like pick a fight with somebody. Have a principle. I always admired the principle and always came up in like some very dramatic… So I remember when we thought he was, you know, so fully in that hospice sleepiness that he couldn’t be reached, I was sitting there beside him, holding his warm paper thin hand, and it just said really quietly, Grandpa, how many people do you think you’ve punched with this hand? And of course, very long silence because, one, he probably couldn’t hear me. And the nurses looked at her like, what in the world? Like, okay, granddaughter, like we’re trying we’re playing violins in the background, like, nobody needs your sass. And then after about three minutes, he all of a sudden goes. 23. Maybe 24. And then they proceeded to walk me through all the people he’d punched in the face over the course of his life. And we were crying. We were laughing so hard.
Kelly: That is amazing.
Kate: It’s the most thing he could be. Which is utterly wrong and utterly right in exactly the right moment.
Kelly: And you knew him. You knew him. You know what I mean? The nurses were wrong. You weren’t wrong. You had it.
Kate: 23, maybe 24.
Kelly: That’s phenomenal. At one point when my mom was dying, I put my earbuds in her ears and she hadn’t talked for a while, and I was starting to, like, serve up songs that I knew she loved, like Ave Maria and the Green Green Grass of Home and Kris Kristofferson and Neil Diamond and Perry Como. And she loved The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel and this whole time now I’m on like the 13th song I’ve played for her and there’s no change in her being. And, you know, there’s a little part of me that was like, I hope I’m not driving her crazy. Like, she has no way to indicate to me. But I was watching your forehead for any kind of, like, discomfort and I wasn’t seeing it. And I was seeing it at other times, like when the doctors would come in, I’d see it kind of get tighter between her eyebrows. And so that was the only guess I had of whether it was working or not. And then the boxer came on and then, like way under her breath, I heard lie-la-lie. Lie-la-lie. I was like oh my god, you’re there. I was like, Jammy, you’re here. You’re here. Like, I just was, like, squeezing your hand. Like, I didn’t know you were still here. I really think, I just, you’ll never convince me that they can’t hear you. You know. I’ve been there twice now and there’s just no way that based on my evidence, I have evidence. And that little, like lie-la-lie, like I like jumped out of my skin. I was like, my God, this just changes everything. This changes everything. I just didn’t know you could hear. I didn’t even know if you knew I was here. So. But it was great. It was really great. And I wish it for everyone. Both for people who still have their parents, but also for us, you know, when our time comes, I was like you have laid down the most perfect playbook, Jammy, like you have given me. I will refer to this. I’ll look for my out.
Kate: Do you recommend people just use that time then to say the things that, now that you’ve felt, Just like to say it.
Kelly: Totally.
Kate: Have all the being with they want to have.
Kelly: Yeah. And I, I definitely that room is not for everyone. It is not everyone’s nature to just be right up against that situation because her body and her face and stuff just didn’t look that good because, you know, you lose 40 pounds, your cheekbones feel like they’re touching the ceiling. I mean, she was so drawn and it the makes your eyes really deep and then, you know, your hands and feet change colors. So it’s a lot. And so I guess the only thing I would say is that if you’re teetering and like pushing yourself to be there or not be there, you know. For me. I would push yourself to be there. And I think there’s things to be learned. I think, you know, there are just answers there that you can’t get any other way. And there’s just a lot of there’s a lot of payoff. I don’t feel haunted. I mean, I think about it a lot. I think about those last, you know, 3 or 4 minutes a lot. I’ve probably revisited them I don’t know, maybe 20 times since May. But I don’t know it’s just it’s an incredible sight to see. And I believe, you know, I believe I walked her out. I believe she knows.And, you know, I mean, even before she stopped talking, she said, I don’t know what I’d do without you. And that is not the kind of thing that she would say. That’s not. She’s not a musy, like, I’m such a reaction to her because I’m so emotional and effusive and affectionate. And she was kind of kept it in the pocket, shall we say. And she’s huge show don’t tell person like she you knew she loved you and she you knew she’d do anything for you and you knew that you were on her mind all the time. Yeah, but she, you know, I mean I only saw her cry like one time. I saw her cry when my dad died, and that was about it. My whole life. My kids see me cry like weekly. You know what I mean?
Kate: My team saw me cry three times this morning.
Kelly: Right. Tammy and I cry, cefinitely cry. One of us cries at least once a week.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. We do make a couple rules with the, like, beautiful messages we get in. Well, we try to, like, limit cry hours where we’re like, please try not to cry after 7 p.m..
Kelly: Well, that’s amazing. Do you remember in Broadcast News where Holly Hunter, like, the opening scene, I think, is that she, like, walks out onto the stock. She has this, like, spontaneous fit of crying, and then she walks back on the dock. And I remember seeing it. And I love that movie for so many reasons, but I remember thinking that scene was so weird. I was like, What is that? Like? I don’t even get that. And that’s because I was like 23. Now I’m like, Of course. Of course. You needed to like purge the weight of the world and like, dump it into the across the like, send your tears across the lake and then get busy and get back to work.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah, I can see that.
Kelly: What’s your inner circle happy?
Kate: I am of the generation of gentle parenters where we have hoped that our children’s self-esteem can, but most really just their entire character can be built from compliments. Like, do you even have to give them negative feedback? Probably not, when you can just encourage them to lean into the integrity of their yeses, you know. It’s just like ever since Zach was born, I mean, I was I was just frankly so thrilled to have overcome like the terrible season of infertility that this child like just every night when we put him to bed, it’s like where we have like the pageantry, the fanfare, the like it’s like a coronation ceremony every night because just we’re like and we now crown you our very favorite person of the day. We go through his feelings. It is absolutely a lot. And then we put him in baseball. It turns out there is crying in baseball. What was that movie with A League of Their Own? Where they’re like, there’s no crying in baseball? There’s so much crying in baseball. He’s never played a sport before ever.
Kelly: Is he like ten now?
Kate: Yeah he just turned 11 and it’s it’s like a late start and he just was like, this is my dream. I now want to play baseball, even though I’m positive he just like, saw some baseball cards, thought trading cards was fun and then is like stuck on third base, like openly weeping as people throw balls at his head. And then, you know, then there’s coaches who think that he’s adorable and coaches that don’t. And so we’ve had to draw like, like feelings charts where we’re like, hey, just trying to keep you within, like I was like, the ceiling is like great feelings. We want to figure out the floor because the basement is shame. Let’s just like try to keep you out of the basement. And then it turns out all the kids can’t stop crying. And I feel like it’s really I’d like to hope it’s just a generational limitation where we have the same fault. And we’re just having it collectively. Yeah, that’s been a huge joy and also the the limit of my parenting is signing him up for this much intermittent sorrow. But they just won the championship. I don’t know what that means, but he got his first trophy that wasn’t actually just borrowing our friends. He’s borrowed a lot of my friends like cross-country 10th grade ribbons over the years. So this is the first bit of self esteem that belongs to him and his effort. I really hope he doesn’t do it again. It’s so much time.
Kelly: Like nine hours.
Kate: I went up to one of the parents and I was like, my gosh, so this is wrapping up soon. Because it’s, of course, 9 p.m. on a school night. They’re like oh no, we’re here another, like four hours.
Kelly: You know, I moved to Bozeman this year and I was talking to some parents. They have to drive like six hours to play a sports game because there’s just not enough teams.
Kate: No.
Kelly: I cannot believe anyone in this town does sports then. Like, that’s insane. Now I know all the kids get headaches because they’re trying to do their homework and the moving car on the way home from, like, volleyball and like, with you.
Kate: What is even going on. I interviewed Coach K. Hey, actually, this is a happy. I interviewed Coach K, who’s the famous Duke basketball coach.
Kelly: One does not need to tell me this.
Kate: Well, for me, you knew so much about basketball going in. I live and work at a basketball shrine. But he said that part of why he became a coach is when he was young, all of his friends would play baseball, but he would just sort of herd them into groups as they ran away from their parents. And then they would sort of scream at each other for hours and hours every night. And I thought, well, that makes sense as a semi organized sports, like, what are we doing driving six hours when one child with a sense of determination could just scream at our children for free?
Kelly: So, I like Coach K, I got to do this crazy thing back when George and Barbara Bush were alive, they used to have a celebration of reading where they raise all this money for literacy programs, and so they’d have six writers. So the year that I did it, it was Doris Kearns Goodwin, Brad Thor, who writes like thrillers. Jeff Kinney, who wrote Diary of a Wimpy Kid, a cookbook person, me and Coach K had written a book about coaching the Olympic team.
Kate: Yes.
Kate: And I got to bring a date to this. And I’m a Democrat. My parents are Republicans. I was like, Greenie, my dad. I got, like, the best invation ever for you. We’re going to go to lunch with the president and Mrs. Bush and other readers are going to be there. And so Greenie got to sit next to Coach K for this two hour lunch with President Bush. And I was over with Jeff Kinney and Mrs. Bush. And I mean, I never saw my dad so happy. Just like pulling every story out of Coach K, and, you know, he just had so much to work with. In fact, at the end of my dad’s life. I had to go give a reading in the middle of that 21 day period, and I was panicked. I didn’t understand. You know, you don’t know what’s happening. You don’t know how fast it’s happening. And I said to Edward, will you come here from California, will you come to Philadelphia and just stay with him while I have to go to North Carolina, actually, to do a reading. And he said, sure. So I called him at the end of the day and I’m like, how is he? He’s like, he’s alright. And I said, what did you guys do? And he said, we sat in bed and watched a Duke basketball game. I was like, you sat in bed with my dad? And he’s like, yeah, it was great.
Kate: That’s so cute.
Kelly: I’m like, Eddie. Now I’ll never leave you.
Kate: We’re going to take a quick break to tell you about the sponsors of this show. We’ll be right back. Can I do the 9 to 5 one? Because now I’m thinking of a fun work one.
Kelly: Yeah. Do it.
Kate: My work related happy is I’ve always wanted to try stand up.
Kelly: You do?
Kate: I just thought it’s so dumb, right? I mean, the amount of insecurity it creates, it’s easier for me to like. I mean, I like giving a speech mostly because I have an argument, and, like I’m not going to be wrong. Like, I already know I’m not going to be wrong. I’ve worked really hard on that argument. I did the research. Like then I can come in with a lot of confidence because it’s to me it’s always argument based. But like if it’s personality or humor based, like, okay, yeah, you might like me, you might be waiting for the real person to show up. So at the very beginning of my Coach K event, I thought, wouldn’t it be fun if I started off with like a tight seven? I was like, I’ll do it tight seven. I didn’t know what that meant, but I had heard my comedian friends be like they always say like oh I did a tight five and was it cool so I created like wrote some jokes and then I called one of my very favorite comedians is Gerry Dee. He has this amazing show in Canada about being a high school basketball coach or a high school like Phys-Ed teacher. And Gerry Dee also does Family Feud Canada and one time he let me and my sister go on Family Feud and he made us big badges and like scream on stage, which brings me a lot of joy. So I, I performed it all for Gerry and I was like, what do you think? And it’s very long silence. And he’s like, yeah, there’s there’s a lot there. And I was like, my gosh, you hate it. He’s like, yeah, I reall hate it. So I was like, it’s really bad. It was bad. And then they’re experts, right? He like, broke down all my jokes. He’s like this doesn’t work because it’s not believable. This doesn’t work because you said this about yourself and no one thinks that about you. You have to start with a premise they can buy into. And I was like, screw you. So then he gave me a couple ideas and he was like, he’s like, Look, this worked for me when I, this is the most Canadian anecdote ever. He’s like, when I had to introduce Wayne Gretzky, I think the strongest move you can do when you come in and, you know, someone is like so much better than you, you kind of got to punch down, like pretend that you’re above them, but you got to punch down hard. And I was like. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Awesome. That totally works between men, I think. As opposed to, like, some kind of, like, me Little House on the Prairie face coming out of being like this. So, like, what’s the deal with. So I developed seven minute set that I practiced more than I’ve ever practiced for anything in my life. I rented out fake stages with sound crews so that I could film it. I had a million versions of note cards, which I slowly dropped off and then, unfortunately for Coach K, I didn’t warn him. He was like, He’s so prepared, he’s so professional, he’s standing side stage and he’s he’s like, so what’s going to happen? And I was like, well, I’m just going to go out and introduce you. We’ll just play a little funny video and I’ll introduce you and then we’ll have a meaningful conversation. He’s like, sounds good. So I go out on stage and I begin seven minutes of a set that’s like basically not insinuating, stating that under any circumstances I could absolutely do his job if given if given the opportunity. And I look over, and he’s standing there like fully arms crossed, it’s just like, what? As I’m like, working the crowd, train my material, desperately bantering. I have never because I kept picturing that one moment where he realizes I’m making fun of him and like, will he think it’s funny or will he be like, I regret every choice that led me to this moment. So he comes out on stage and then I just knew there is going to be so much awkwardness. So I handed him, instead of like doing the greeting, I handed him a whiteboard and I was like, So normally, like I’ve heard that you write of like a focus word to help sort of situate your like, focus your team. I wondered maybe we could both write a word right now to help focus our conversation. And then I wrote Best Friends because I was trying to be funny. He wrote hopeful. And I was like, Why did you choose hopeful? He’s like, I don’t know if he swore, but he said some version of like, I’m just pretty hopeful I’m going to learn if you can do your effing job in the next 40 minutes. I wept. I was like, now we’re in. It was like I could see the moment he just decided, this is what’s happening to me.
Kelly: Who is this woman? How did I get here?
Kate: And who gave her this confidence? The answer is, Gerry Dee.
Kelly: Is this viewable? Can we all go to YouTube and see this?
Kate: I don’t think I’m going to air it. It’s so ridiculous.
Kelly: Can you set it to me then?
Kate: It’s so dumb.
Kate: It’s so great. I love that you did that. And my daughter Claire does stand up and so I’ve watched somebody do it like 25 times and it and I’ve watched all the other people do it. And my God, I’m just so impressed. Like all hail Kate like that is, because I mean, I’ve given millions to I mean, I don’t know, more probably 1000 speeches in 20 years. And even before that, I worked for United Way and all I was doing was giving speeches, telling people to give a dollar from their paycheck. And I mean, I don’t think I could do it. I think I’d be too nervous.
Kate: I think 100% you could. You just have to tell a comedian in advance and they’ll tell you that everything you ever thought was funny is actually a great disappointment to them.
Kelly: If I practiced in front of Claire, she’d be like, Here’s some feedback. Here’s a note. Yeah, let me give you a couple notes there, Ma. Oh my god. Well done you. Okay, so my my work 9 to 5 happy is that with very little forethought or effort, honestly, we started doing something that most podcasts do, which is we send a little note each week to say, we had Bono on this week. Let’s just say. I mean, let’s pull a name out of a hat and that was a work high. Having Bono was a total, total, total work high. But like sending these little emails and then we just have a super plain email address. It’s just, hello@kellycorrigan. And then all of a sudden all these numbers that you’re watching when you’re a podcaster, how many downloads and how far into the episode did they listen and how many of those episodes they listened to in a month? And all that quantification that just ruins it all and like turns people into numbers. All the numbers turn back into people because there they are. And then it’s like they have a name and they have a little story and they share something with you. And so being in touch with listeners totally changes how I feel about my job. And I don’t know why I didn’t do it sooner. And the whole reason we’re able to do it is because of these two women, Charlie Upchurch and Rachel Hicks, who put it all together, who convinced me that it was not going to be too stressful, who helped me see all the emails that come in because they kind of batch them together and that has been very satisfying. Because per my crappy on the numbers thing, that’s just no place to spend your time.
Kate: Yeah.
Kelly: But you can’t help it. It’s like part of your business, you know? And you have to run your business. Now all you want to do is just talk to nice people about good stuff.
Kate: Yeah, totally. That’s right. Like we were talking about, it’s hard to. It’s just so hard to try without all of the other emotions you don’t want crowding in. Like, the door opens and they all run in with it.
Kelly: Yes. Right. And this feels like this very simple change that we made that’s totally doable it’s not stressing anybody out is like bouying all of us. And even we share it with Dean Keteri, who’s the technical producer, we share it with Derrick Peters, who does The Sunday Pod, the thanks for being here. And you know, it’s just for all of us I think it’s like this is what we’re doing. This is the point of what we’re doing.
Kate: Yeah, this is super. That’s nice.
Kelly: All right. What’s your bonus?
Kate: I’ve been reading, I well, I’ve been writing again. I’m writing a book and I got some advice, actually. I love, like, we get to meet writers all the time and it’s always very inspiring to hear what they’re working on. But it really made me laugh when I was talking to Ann Patchett, who’s of course, like an incredibly talented novelist. She said, I thought in a very pointed way hey Kate, I’m writing a book about happy people. You should try it sometime. Oh my gosh. It really made me laugh. You should try it sometime. And I was like, fine so I’m writing a book about joy right now.
Kelly: And how is it? How’s it going?
Kate: It’s definitely the stretch I need right now. Because I, well, first of all, sometimes you just don’t really even know definitionally what something is like you think you know. And I guess that’s what’s so fun about a research project is like, well, then what counts as joy? I was going to have a whole section on, like, ordinary joys, and then I was going to think about, like, the way you feel about your pets or your backyard. And there’s this wonderful writer named Margaret Wrinkle, and she’s always writing about like, birds and her backyard. And so when I went into her actual backyard, I was like, Margaret, your backyard better be pretty effing magical because I don’t have a single thing to say about my backyard. And so I thought, you know, this is going to be okay. I’m just going to write about these, like, contemplative, beautiful things and turns out one, I’m absolutely garbage at writing about the more peaceful elements. And two, I decided it’s not joy. I decided that it’s peace. I decided it’s different forms of love, but that it’s not joy and therefore I don’t have to write about it. And I immediately let Margaret know. I was like, screw you and your backyard, Margaret I’m not doing it.
Kelly: What is joy? What’s an example of joy?
Kate: Well, one example is like when you cross a threshold, like you think like a door opens, it’s like a sudden transition. So it could feel like a relief. But I didn’t realize that that feeling of a sudden gateway is a is like an integral part to joy. And so you meet people all the time who think like, you know, sort of like the feeling of having a like a prison sentence waves like you really thought life was determinedly headed in one direction and suddenly makes a left hand turn. And so I realized when people tell me a story like that, I’m almost always going to hear about joy.
Kelly: What’s another, like near cousin of joy that’s not joy in the way you think of it?
Kate: Love. I mean, right now, my son has a box. A snuggle box. Right. That he snuggles in every morning. We were late to school today because he spent too much time in that snuggle box. That’s love. But it’s not a joy.
Kelly: Sometimes I feel like a little burst of joy when I realize that my body feels good from head to toe. Is that fair?
Kate: I mean, I think, like a realization that then, like, floods in some gratitude like that. That could be joy. There’s also, like, just a transcendent element that I just realized, like, in everything I ever want to pay attention to and write about, I guess what I’m always looking for is that like that in breaking feeling where it could have been one way, but it was another. And I’ve really noticed that I’ve met some really remarkable people recently who have truly terrible things happen, but have turned it into, like, you know, almost like the transmogrifier machine from Calvin and Hobbes. Like, they take a thing, and then it’s suddenly become something else. And I’ve just watched people recently turn grief into justice for somebody else or turn a lot of pain into forgiveness. And there’s nothing very causal about it. But it does create like a genuine awe being close to it. And so I think that’s maybe what I’m looking for in this writing is like, man, I just want to feel awe about joy.
Kelly: What are some of the other chapters?
Kate: Oh my gosh. I think it’s mostly garbage right now, Kelly. Don’t you just feel like writing is just this miasma of garbage? It’s the garbage continent floating somewhere in the ocean and then all the sudden it’s a book.
Kelly: I think I might title, I’m also working on a book, and I think I might give the working manuscript the title A Miasma of Garbage, so that as I enter it each day, I am entering with the proper expectation of what I’m going to discover. It’s like we’re still in that garbage stage.
Kate: Totally.
Kelly: And many beautiful things potentially yet to come.
Kate: Totally.
Kate: Do not be discouraged by…
Kate: Dumps have all kinds of treasures in there.
Kelly: Right.
Kate: Having watched bears eat garbage for a lot of my high school life at summer camp.
Kelly: That’s a real advantage, you know, to you as a writer. I mean that’s like one of your gifts is that there are just bears eating garbage nearby seemingly all the time as a metaphor, just a happy metaphor of your life in the future.
Kate: I was like, that’ll preach. Hey, what are you writing about, though? What’s your book?
Kelly: I can’t tell you. And I’ll tell you why I can’t tell you. I can’t tell you because it’s about joy. No I’m just kidding.
Kate: It’s Kate Bowler, a biographical account of a friendship.
Kelly: Yeah, it’s just about transimogrification. No, the reason why is because I have learned something over the years that I’m very sensitive at this stage of things to whatever little reaction you might have. And it puts tremendous pressure on the people you’re talking to know so that if you were to, like one time I was working on a book and the person said, that’s so cute. What? Did you say cute? Like, cute? Like, is this cute in and like, for days I would just look over and say to Edward, is it cute? It’s like, am I cute? Like, what happened? Why did she say that? And he’s like, Kelly, she’s probably like, you know, half paying attention to you and half like, answering a text from one of her kids and half trying to wave her husband over to the corner of the room so he could find her. And now you’re like going to throw it all away because this one person said this one word that’s like unraveling you. And I was like, cute is like really, really bad word. He’s like, there you go again. You’re like, obsessed.
Kate: I read a paragraph to a friend yesterday and he said it was horrible. I regretted it the rest of the night. I was like, why did I read this out loud? What is wrong with me? Why did I think you were a supportive person?
Kelly: There’s like a lot of reasons why a paragraph may or may not work. And if you’re just pulling one out of the blue, it’s like for maybe the reason it’s beautiful is because of what came before it that you didn’t read out loud. So I think it’s very high risk for me because I’m sensitive to other people’s feedback and the facial expressions and the pacing of their feedback and the expression, and the volume and the word voice. Like all of that like threatens the whole project for me.
Kate: Yeah, yeah.
Kate: Especially with somebody like you who is a writer and somebody who I respect and whatever. Like if you didn’t have precisely the right reaction, I’d be like, fuck it, I’m not doing it.
Kate: Let me just say, from not knowing and then I will know later. My response will be unadulterated joy and interest and I’ll show it to you later. I’ll mime it for you.
Kelly: Thank you.
Kate: In a video that you can control.
Kelly: Thank you. Thank you. I think my bonus is kind of lame, actually, but I was really afraid and I don’t want to forget. Sometimes I anticipate something negative, it doesn’t happen. And I don’t actually, like, celebrate it not happening enough, given how nervous I was that it might happen.
Kelly: Yeah.
Kelly: And a thing I was really, really afraid of was some kind of wave of terrible civil violence after the election.
Kate: Yeah.
Kelly: And, you know, the person I voted for didn’t win, but it felt free. I felt fair. It felt like that’s the way the cookie crumbled. And it certainly seems like there’s going to be a peaceful transfer of power. And it was kind of crazy, but I had I had a range of feelings watching Trump in the Oval Office with Joe Biden in front of that fire not that long ago and thinking. And they just, you know, they shook hands for the media. But there’s something about it that was like, I need this. I need this norm to stay intact. And I, I don’t know if it would have gone as smoothly, if the outcome had been different. But it’s like a tiny win for me that something I was really scared of didn’t happen. And you know, on a similar note, I was really scared that Matt Gaetz was going to get to be the attorney general, which upset me because I thought how deeply discouraging for all the people who are super qualified for that job, who have absolutely no whiff of bad, bad, bad behavior on them, who were overlooked. And I thought how discouraging that would be for everyone who has been assaulted to think like they don’t even care anymore. People don’t even care anymore. Like, you can be the head of justice and have treated people injustly and illegally. So it was just a relief to me that there was a line there. And even if he selected somebody who is going to carry out policies that I may disagree with or feel concerned about, it’s not a predator. And that matters at some tiny level. So that is my weird bonus.
Kate: That’s a good one. That’s a nice one. Actually, I even have a civic bonus that happened. In North Dakota. They have this thing called the Brave Conversations Project, and it’s this lovely collaboration between this humanities organization and the indigenous elder historian of this local tribe. And they get together and there’s a lecture, and then there’s all these tables set up with just water. And people will sit around the table and talk about whatever the lecture was among people who are very different than themselves. Got to give a lecture and then watch the spirit of this project be entirely about like, common understanding. So that’s why it’s like brave conversations. So it was at my table it was a police officer, a English professor, a nurse. It was a great mix of people that I think probably voted very differently, being incredibly generous with each other. They were like vulnerable with each other. And it was like in a city like Grand Forks is big enough that it’s not like they knew each other and it was like a deeply nostalgic, small, you know, small town story of strangers being charitable. And and then at the end, I got presented with like a with a blanket, like a ceremonial blanket. And what was so nice is that it was the son of this wonderful elder who he picked a blanket that was of the night sky over where I grew up and was like, these are of the northern lights. So I’m like, thank you for being a northern light. And I really just felt like, Man, we are like, the feeling that we are being lights to each other but felt so visceral in the middle of so much fear about the election and fear about what political division will do to us, that I have to admit that was probably one of the most meaningful experiences that I’ve had at all in a long time.
Kelly: That is a great one to end on. That is a hopeful vision.
Kate: People peopling.
Kelly: People peopling. I love you.
Kate: Love you home. Thanks for happying and crappying with me.
Kelly: Thanks for happying and crappying. See you next year.
Kate: Well, friends, here we are standing on the edge of a new year with all its questions and promises and unknowns. Life is always a mix of lovely and terrible, isn’t it? But maybe that’s where we find what’s most real. The love that sustains us. The hope that insists on showing up anyway. And to all of you, my lovely listeners, may this year be one where you are gentle with what’s fragile, bold with what’s possible, and open to the wonder of what might still be. Bless you, darlings. And I’d love to hear from you. What are your happies from this year? Call us at (919) 322-8731. Or just write me a note on social media. I’m @katecbowler. Hey, also make sure you are subscribed over at katebowler.com/newsletter. We have a new series starting this January and I don’t want you to miss it. It’s very cool and I’m very excited about it. And hey, a huge thank you to Kelly, Tammy and her whole team at Kelly Corrigan Wonders for making this episode possible. What a treat. This is Everything Happens with me, Kate Bowler.
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