Angela Williams

Kate Bowler: Hey there. I’m Kate Bowler, and this is Everything Happens. This is a listening community just chock full of people who care. Like, really, really care. Like, choose jobs that cost them something. You beautiful people are, you know, your everyone, your doctors and teachers and social workers and chaplains and health care workers. And you run nonprofits. You volunteer for the sake of others. You are the kind of person who offer to bring food. It’s just wonderful. And often your work asks you to care for strangers. And isn’t that a beautiful definition of love? Today, I have the privilege of sitting down with someone who has lived a life of service. She holds a deep and beautiful conviction that we are made for community and interdependence, whether it’s when our own lives come unraveled or that of our neighbors, she believes that we are called to show up for one another. And her name is Angela Williams. Angela is…ugh, she has all the hats. She is a lawyer, a minister, a lifelong advocate for others. She’s the president and CEO of United Way Worldwide, with more than 30 years of leadership experience in the nonprofit and corporate sectors. And before joining United Way, Angela was president and CEO of Easterseals. She also served on active duty in the U.S. Air Force, led as an executive vice president, general counsel and chief administrative officer at the YMCA. So she’s just like the perfect person to talk to about the virtues that sustain a life of service. So not just what makes us feel altruistic, but what keeps us going when a big part of our life is caring. I had the great joy of sitting down with Angela for this conversation today, and if you, like, you can watch some clips from our conversation. I’ll include them in the show notes over at KateBowler.com/podcast, or you can find it in our email. Okay. But without further ado, the wonderful Angela Williams.

Kate: Angela, thank you so much for doing this. I felt like I immediately wanted to call you reverend J.D., everything. Because I have, because you’re so many people to so many people. But I thought maybe we could start at the very beginning and talk about your childhood. You grew up with a front-row seat to the Civil Rights Movement. And I wondered if you could start there with your parents.

Angela Williams: Thank you for this opportunity to be here with you. I’m really excited and actually thank you for starting with my parents because that is my foundation and my beginning. And as you mentioned, my parents were very active in the Civil Rights Rovement. My dad was pastor of a church. He was head of the NAACP for the state of South Carolina. And while I was cleaning out my parents’ attic last year, I found a letter that my dad wrote in 1957 to all of the pastors in the state, and he said, essentially, now is the time to be brave and courageous and stand up for justice and righteousness. And it was just a very moving letter and powerful. And, and so that’s the family lineage that I was I was born into. I remember–

Kate: The “now is the time” legacy has got to be, uh,

Angela: Yes.

Kate: Yeah. Now is the time.

Angela: Now is the time.

Kate: And that was before so many landmark cases that opened up the possibility for…I mean, I’m just running in my head through like, the integration of so many colleges, or public services.

Angela: But you know what? That now is the time theme, and being brave and courageous? I think it’s prevalent for today and where we find ourselves. And my dad worked with Martin Luther King Jr. And if you know about his last book, Dr. King’s book, it’s From Chaos to Community: Where Do We Go from Here? And he talks about this notion of a world house where we are integrated and can no longer–Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Christian–we are integrated, we are tied together. And so in that integration and and that entanglement, we have a choice to make. Do we want to stay in chaos or do we want to move into community? And so that’s what I’ve learned from my parents about being in community, serving community.

Kate: If I were going to pick, like… Looking at the scope of your life, your commitment to communities in particular: so intense. I mean, I think other people might feel like they’re pro-institution in some way where they choose a group to whom they will be of direct service. And you are lucky. You are in it. I wonder when you decided that like not community in general, but communities in particular, does that feel like that account of vocation feels exactly like your parents’ language in your mind?

Angela: It does. So if you had met me when I was five years old. Yeah. And asked me, What do you want to do when you grow up? You know what I said? I wanted to be president and I wanted to be a nun.

Kate: “She’s celibate, she’s cool, she travels the world!

Angela: Well, so I am both–in a different context. So, yes, I’m an ordained minister.

Kate: I love this so much. I mean, amazing and I love it. Mine was to be a singing cellist, which I was like, This will be amazing. And then I was like, No one wants to hear that.

Angela: Oh, but it’s not too late for you. You know, I always think about dream big, and we can always live out our dreams. So I am a proponent of that. But, you know, there was this TV show, The Flying Nun with Sally Field. And so my context of women in ministry was that TV show. Yeah. My dad was pastor of a church, but the context of being a woman in ministry was that.

Kate: That makes so much sense.

Angela: So this is a five-year-old’s take on

Kate: Yeah, you’re like, I want this vocational category and this one combined.

Angela: Now president I can articulate it and understand. And so–

Kate: It’s still going to happen

Angela: President of the United Way Worldwide, I mean, it doesn’t get any better than this.

Kate: So what was the first, what was the first turn in the road, then? Was, was it directly toward law at the time?Angela: So here’s what I would say. It’s about advocacy. And so my vocation is tied to advocacy. And as a lawyer and a minister, it’s about advocating.

Kate: I mean, I guess vocation…to be called to something in particular is also then, to say no to other, to other maybe, you don’t want to say lesser, but maybe lesser calls

Angela: So can I tell you a story? Yeah. In the wrestling of who am I? What is my purpose? How do I express all of who I am? And I, I kept my life in different categories. So there was the Reverend Angela Williams that would preach and minister on the weekends. Then there was the lawyer, Angela Williams, general counsel, giving advice to clients, Monday through Friday. One day in my law firm, one of the senior partners came to me and said, “How’s everything going?” And I just went into this tirade about, you know, you all are giving the cases to other people, I’m a former federal prosecutor, I had no trial. I have a trial experience. And you’re giving the cases to the guy down the street that’s only argued one motion in federal court. It’s just not fair. You’re not treating me fairly. And so after I expressed myself, he then says to me, “Angela. How many resumes do you have?” And I was like, why is this relevant to the conversation? But anyways, I have two why, no bios. And as to why he said, what are they? I said, well, this my lawyer bio and then there’s my minister bio. And he said, “Oh, so you’re an inauthentic person.” Oh my gosh, Did that push a button? What do you mean? I’m not authentic. I am very authentic. And he said, if you were really authentic, you would show your whole self everywhere you go and not hide or compartmentalize portions of your life. And, and then he said, the reason is, Angela, because people want to work with people they resonate with. And so it almost it’s this yeah, you may be smart, you’re good a good lawyer, but there are tons of really smart, good lawyers. How do I feel in your presence? What, what are the things that you and I have in common? Outside of, I’m a client, you’re my lawyer. And when he said that, I thought, oh, so my spirituality may be important to the person that I’m talking to across the table. I see.

Kate: I see. So like the many layers. Yes. Because there is such a temptation, I think, especially with maybe our over-professionalization and our specialization starts so early. And then when people pick a path, I think they feel like they can just be kind of too long down one path. Then they forget other hobbies or dreams, or friends they had. And then they might feel like overly siloed into a person that can’t really show the fullness of who they are.

Angela: Yes. And be unapologetic about it. Yeah. And I think what’s tough now these days is that people tend to live by soundbites and they define other people by soundbites. It’s however many minutes that you have where you could do an Instagram live or do a video to post on Instagram, or it’s however many words you can put into a tweet. And I think that’s really unfortunate because there’s power in the human connection and we don’t have to agree. But let’s at least talk to each other and engage and understand each other.

Kate: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Like across these insanely sharp divides. Yes. That our media and probably training and breakdown of democracy. That’s great.

Angela: But that’s what I love about my, my organization. Because, first of all, let’s start with the name United Way. What better name? It’s 135-year-old organization that was founded by a Jewish woman, a rabbi, a Catholic priest, and a Lutheran and a Presbyterian. Pastors, ministers, theologians. Right? So yeah. They all walk in and say there’s a need in Denver. And we need to collect the, the, the time, talent, treasure of our community and put it in what was called our former name a “community chest,” and then give it out to those in need.

Kate: I remember that from Monopoly, actually.

Angela: It was. The community chest is based off of United Way.

Kate: What? That’s amazing.

Angela: Yes. Wouldn’t it be nice if we were getting royalties?

Kate: Absolutely.

Angela: But that’s. That’s us.

Kate: Like this is our common treasure. Yes. Which we will then. Give out in the service of others

Angela: Yes. And so we transition at some point from community chest to–some of our local, you know, that we still use that that term or that name–but United Way. And so this notion of being in community and my colleagues live in community, they’re neighbors helping neighbors, and they come together in times of need. And then there’s this way in this journey that we’re all on together to create community resilience, to allow people the opportunity to thrive, to meet people where they are in terms of need and support. So that’s what we do.

Kate: How is that? What is it? I’m not sure what their slogan is. I’m thinking of–when I think of United Way, I think of when I give lectures on the 19th century and the rise of these mass…like they think of the I think what they call it is like, the voluntary century. Like that these were the very first foundations of these incredible corporate projects.

Angela: Like the YMCA where I used to work. Easterseals. And so there are just so many you can think about: Red Cross, Salvation Army, rather, Goodwill.

Kate: And so what was the mandate of the United Way at the start? And then how did it evolve?

Angela: Essentially, it’s mobilizing the caring power of community. And that hasn’t really changed. And so now, in our second century of service, how we mobilize the caring power of community looks different. You have what we all experienced over the last few years, a pandemic, and how that brought to light systems that were broken that people couldn’t access, whether it was food or medical support or even having access to the internet because kids were working from home. Or even having the hardware, meaning computers. And so we saw everything on full display during the pandemic. And then how we in partnership with other nonprofits and other corporations and government, we worked to figure out how to deliver these necessary services to individuals. But it doesn’t stop there. I mean, I talk about the fact that we’re in 37 countries and that the language spoken may be different, the faces may be different, the culture may be different. But basic needs for human survival and thriving are the same. And so how we show up locally may be different depending on the, the pressing need at that moment. But in this second century of service, how do we as a system show up in a way that is, one, it allows for those who are in need to come up with creating the solutions for, for what’s happening to them so that we’re not saviors, but rather partners. Secondly, how do we tap into technology in a way that allows for, one, collecting data real-time to share. Here are emerging issues and communities and what can we do to coalesce around those? And then third, just again, lifting up the voices of those in community to share. Hey, this is what’s happening to us. This is how we are experiencing life and then coming up with unique ways, multigenerational ways that resonate for people to feel as if they want to give up their time, talent and treasure.

Kate: Yeah. How do people typically give their time, talent and treasure? Do they, I imagine people give money. Are there people who are just like United Way volunteers? And that’s part of their community identity?

Angela: It is. So we have about 1.4 million volunteers.

Kate: What an amazing. number.

Angela: It is. And we can, so my husband, as I was saying, something like, oh, I want to triple that and I want to do this and do this. And I was throwing out like tripling everything that we do. And he said, Where are you coming up with these numbers? I said, I don’t know. I’m just dreaming big. Okay, I’m going to do it. So just leave me alone. Right? This is it. I’m just throwing that stake in the ground and this is what we’re going to do. But what I appreciate about our organization is that we have incredible corporate partnerships. We have about 45,000 corporations that partner with us. And through their employee giving campaigns, we’re able to not only raise funds out of the generosity of individual employees, but also create opportunities for volunteerism.

Kate: I see. And are a lot of the, because I’m, one of the things I think we’re all worried about is in this thing we right now, both as an American religious historian and as someone who really knows how much. I mean, I couldn’t have put most of the structures of my life together, and need people who volunteer to kind of like shore my life up and have me back in. I think we’re all a little worried that volunteerism isn’t as normal as it was before. I mean, my, my parents went could only afford college because they got a Rotary scholarship. And a lot of these we’ve seen the decline of so many of these forms of associational, like, belonging that now doesn’t feel–I mean, now there are pickleball leagues and we’re going to celebrate pickleball. But it is not the same thing as being part of like a group that typically regularly meets and then, you know, and then volunteers en masse. I wonder how you’ve been thinking about this sort of new need to recruit new people into volunteerism, and then how maybe to encourage people to feel like it could be a part of their life without because most of the people we’re talking about are already–they’d be like, “I don’t have time or treasure or, or maybe talent,” but hey kind of worry that they’re too busy and they’re not sure how to connect.

Angela: Yes. So that’s a great question. And what we’re seeing with seeing with the younger generations–are we down to, what,  Gen Z now? What are we at?

Kate: We’re going to fall off the alphabet at this point?

Angela: Yeah, we start over again. But with the younger folks, what causes them to engage is when it’s something that resonates and they can actually see how their effort makes a difference. So it has to be tangible in their community.

Kate: Can you give me an example?

Angela: So an example would be we see a lot of young people that are interested in cleaning, a clean environment. Yeah. Or you see a lot of young people that are interested in animal welfare or you see them… In particular, I love the examples of the young people that were developing, like Facebook groups and other ways where they can help seniors that didn’t know how to navigate getting appointments for vaccines, or you saw the young people that were putting together boxes of food to help at the food banks or just to help in their community. So I honestly believe that the human spirit is such that we come out of the womb, yeah, we have our selfish aspects, but we are really connected to each other and care. And in, and especially like young children, if they see a need, they want to do a lemonade stand or something. So here’s the challenge for nonprofits, for corporations that want to engage their employees in volunteerism. How do you create a mechanism, whether it’s an app or a way where a person feels like they can own what it is they want to engage in because it sparks their interest or it aligns with their beliefs on what the difference they want to make in the world. So we need to democratize volunteerism and giving differently than, say, the way we used to do it in the 70s, 80s and the 90s.

Kate: Yeah, yeah. I’m sure you know, the surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, who is a delight, yes, just a delight. Has soothing voice. Yes. Kind presence. Yes. A deep concern about loneliness. Yes. I’m sure you’re seeing I mean, this feels like the same conversation with this social breakdown with I mean, the breakdown of these webs of interdependence. Yes. And then you’re like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Come back. Come back, Come back.

Angela: Yes, exactly. It’s, it’s–we were created to be in community and in relationship. And so even when you…I always marvel, like if you go to a restaurant and you sit down and you look at everybody, how many people are at a table and they’re looking at their phones and not engaging in conversation. You see that around family dining room tables. We have to continue to work at connectivity and that, that even when Dr. Murphy, Tom Murphy talks about this loneliness, I’m concerned about that. That’s not healthy. That doesn’t lead to a healthy system. And systems could be a workplace environment. It could be your church or your synagogue or your mosque. It could be any other system in which we connect with. Yeah.

Kate: We’ll be right back.

Kate: There’s a lot of people who write in to talk about the worst moments of their life. And one of the kind of themes that bubble up is in the in the worst moments, you know, they either really needed a community to come around to be a part of the solution that they needed. Or it was actually in participating in a cause that wasn’t just their own, you know, time of undoing that it gave them a feeling of purpose and a reason. I mean, it’s so weird that like but in caring for others, yes, it really does sometimes, like, whittle away at our own sorrow and start to be part of our healing.

Angela: And that’s an important point, because if you focus on your own stuff, then you forget like what’s really important in life and making sure that you’re not pulling away. So, for example, when my husband got the diagnosis for cancer, he was asymptomatic and we had gone to the Mayo Clinic for our annual checkup. So you go to your annual checkup. You’re feeling fine. So you don’t anticipate that there’s going to be any bad news. And then to end up walking away like there is some bad news and here it is. And we need to get you into treatment immediately. And so we drove back from Rochester, Minnesota, to Chicago. And I was driving and just driving through tears of like 5 hours of: what just happened? And he’s lying back in the in the, in the car in pain after the biopsy. And just like both of us were like, okay.

Kate: Oh because it went from diagnosis and then to biopsy right away?

Angela: Oh, yeah.

Kate: Oh, brutal. Oh my gosh.

Angela: They were like, this is, we need to act on this now. And did you want us to schedule surgery, like, next week? And I was like, no, whoah woah woah, can we just, like, digest what just happened? And then his recovery was awful. It was really, really bad. But–and he’s he’s a pastor and he just kept talking to the Lord is saying, why me? Of course, everybody asked that question, and then why am I not healing well and why I’m in so much pain? And, and he said, the Lord kept telling him this, this illness is not unto death. And he held on to that word. And then out of this, so many strangers, men have called him. And a friend of mine and a friend of a friend of a friend said you had gone through this cancer, I need to talk to you. Here’s what the doctor saying. How did you recover? And so he has been now that counselor, that encourager for so many years. And that was for him. Yeah. And then what I got out of the experience was I–while he was in surgery, I made the decision that, my parents asked, “Do you want us to come?” I said, no, I didn’t want his, you know, there’s no need for his family to come. I said, I’ll be fine. I’m going to stay in the hospital room. And my A-type personality I brought, I brought with me two computers, like three cell phones and an iPad, you know, found the nearest electrical plug, you know, set up office at Northwestern hospital and sat there for hours by myself trying to do work. And then it just dawned on me, this is not a good place to be by yourself and alone. And it hurt. And at that moment, I made the decision I will never, ever let a friend go alone and sit in a hospital waiting room by themselves. It hurts. So again, you go through these experiences because you know you need to help other people. And so another close friend of ours called and said, Hey, I’m in town, my husband’s having surgery and I’ve got to go to work. She said, “Well, what’s Rod doing (my husband)?”  I was like, Oh, I’ll tell him. He’ll definitely go, because we lived right next to Northwestern Hospital. And so I called Rod and he said, “Oh, I am definitely going over there.” And our friend, he thanked us post-surgery. He said, Thank you all for coming, because again, there are certain things in life you don’t want to go through by yourself and you just have to make sure that you surround yourself with good people. And then secondly, be vulnerable enough to share what’s going on in your life with other people and not keep it a secret like that part.

Kate: When it’s so much easier to keep it a secret and then suffer.

Angela: Oh listen. And I am the one that is like, ultra, ultra I’m the control, I’ve got it in control. You know, I’m large and in charge.

Kate: I would totally do that. Oh my gosh. I did almost all my medical travel alone.

Angela: Oh, did you?

Kate: And it was, it was terrible. And I would have never said how terrible it was.

Angela: Oh wow. Well I made the commitment to my husband when it came back and he had to go for radiation. I said, “Well, I will take you every morning,” because it was, you know, five days a week. And I said, “But do you mind if we do it like that first part of the morning? So I’ll, I’ll get you back, make sure everything’s in order and then I’ll go to work for a couple of hours, check on you and then come back.” And that worked. That worked well for us. And then, you know, radiation is really tough on the body. And so there were times where it was just like really hard on him.

Kate: How recent was this?

Angela: So this so well, I will tell you this, the first diagnosis was shortly, like, within months of us being married. So we got married June 25th, 2005. So, 18 years in and then it reoccurred. Let me see, about 2018. So, yeah.

Kate: You know, you’re professionally in charge of teaching everyone interdependence, you know, like your entire life in ministry and ethos is like, “I will help create categories that support other people helping others.” Right? And then when it comes to our own personal: “I will bear up this life on my own.”

Angela: Now, I’m not opposed to asking for prayer all the time. So it’s like, hey, I need prayer. Can you pray for me? Okay. Yeah. Who can get a, get a message through to God?

Kate: We’ll be right back.

Kate: We have a lot of people in our community who just, who are, caregiving is a big part of their life and almost like, personality. Maybe like, who are you? A caregiver, right? Whether it’s kids or people with special needs or parents or partners, but like caregivers. What do you say maybe to people who want service to be a part of their life, but then so much of the rest of their life is also, kind of, service?

Angela: Yes. And so sometimes if you’re in service, for example, as a chaplain or as a nurse or a doctor or just so many different ways of a social worker, a navigator, community navigator, sometimes it’s great to do service in something totally different.

Kate: Yeah, totally. Like, I’m going to do this animal rescue thing, right? Instead of, talking to sad people about their sad problems like I do during the day.

Angela: So I think it just really also, even more importantly in terms of self-care, how do you find joy and humor out of life and how do you make sure–because joy is one of my core values. I laugh all the time. I smile nonstop. It’s just who I am. Yeah. And, and so even in your darkest hour, if there’s something that you can find to laugh at, it just changes everything in your body.

Kate: If we were going to talk people into, a life defined by the service and love of others, there’s all the parts that are just like the doing and the… But one of the weird, I feel like, side benefits of being open to the world is like, it does open up a capacity for joy. But it is–when you say, “Joy is one of my core values,” it feels like a lovely foundation to rest on, that you know that you have a big capacity for joy.

Angela: And and, you know, I have to throw this scripture in from the Bible. It says, “The joy of the Lord is my strength.” And, and so, no matter how dark the days are, if you just level set on your spiritual core and your belief system, and then knowing that a dark place or a valley is in between two mountains. And so eventually you’re going to be moving up to the mountaintop. Now, of course, there’s going to be another valley experience, but then you get back up and go on to the next mountaintop. Yeah.

Kate: Yeah. Knowing in the worst moments that it won’t stay there. I mean, that is one of the–even just pace setting your own pain or discomfort with going through that awful thing. A person who says like this, my love, will not last. It makes me feel like new strength kind of bubbles up from under the ground.

Angela: But, you know, there are there are some things that happen in life that become permanent. But the question is, how do you view your circumstance? And what do you say about it? And, and and, in that you can actually transition and still have peace because that’s another component. There’s joy and then there’s peace. And then the scripture says “the peace that surpasses all understanding.” And people will look at you and say, how could you be peaceful in a situation like this?

Kate: Yeah.

Angela: That’s where the spiritual peace comes in and the grounding and the foundation.

Kate: It sounds like this must have been a really important sort of spiritual discipline during your husband’s illness.

Angela: Mm hmm.

Kate: And also just the, I mean, the chaos that being an unbelievably busy and accomplished person brings. Because you have one of those jobs where you I mean, one of the gifts and burdens of having a very purpose-heavy job is all of it’s important. I mean, it’s not like you’re, I mean, all things are good, but you’re not like counting beans in the corner. Yes, You’re like, trying to create the scaffolding for people’s health and well-being.

Angela: Mm hmm. And so disasters hit on a moment’s notice. You never know when you wake up and there’s going to be a war or that day you wake up and there’s a mass shooting, or that day you wake up and a hurricane or a tornado takes out whole communities. And, and it may be your own community where you’re actually touched. But what I see in my United Way colleagues is that they are so selfless. They’ll make sure their family is grounded, but then it’s like, I need to get to the 911 disaster center for the city and help with the calls, our call center operators for two and one. During Hurricane Ian in Florida in 2022, a lot of them didn’t even know what was going on with their own families and they were coaching seniors on how to climb up on to their kitchen countertops because they’re calling, saying, “The water is coming into our house, what do we do?” Or I had one of my SEALs say that a family was able to get her number and texted her to say, “Can you send water rescue? Everybody on our street, we’re on our rooftops.” And her having to text back, “It’s, it’s another 24 hours or so.” And in the meantime, wondering, is my own family okay, how are they doing? And so that’s this selfless, selflessness service. I’ve got to help people in the moment. And that’s what you see with my colleagues at United Way and the partners that we work with. So it’s being in the moment and then saying, all right, we’re going to have to dig in and roll up our sleeves and we’ve got to clean up after this devastation. But we’re going to keep moving on. And, and my favorite phrase of my husband always repeats is like, there you go again. I’m like, let’s just keep it moving. We gotta keep it moving.

Kate: Yeah, let’s just keep it moving is really I mean, that that’s a that’s a that’s a really powerful response to tragedy. Let’s just get some traction under these feet.

Angela: Mm hmm.

Kate: One of the most common. Afflictions of the people that are service-minded is… I mean, there’s all kinds of language for it, but like, burnout, soul weariness, but a sense of not being sure how with the resources they have that they can keep meeting their own purpose-filled desires. And then they’re like, Well, and it’s just runs out. So I kind of want to ask you the same question in two ways. Could you answer it psychologically as if this were an answer about self-care? Hey, there are practical things that people do to whatever. But then I kind of want to ask you like, but spiritually, too. You’re a pastor. You’re someone who thinks about the…and we often have kind of people who need the practical tips and just are kind of it like opens up an existential question in them.

Angela: Especially. You see this with with people like pastors or chaplains or even in the health profession, what the first thing that we have to recognize is that we’re not saviors. Like in the Christian tradition, I’m not the little Jesus, because when you get into that mode, you get into this mode of what I consider to be pride. This person needs me. They are not going to progress unless I do X, Y, and Z. And when we–and it is so subtle because our hearts and our intentions are pure. But we can easily slip into this, “They need me, therefore I must…” So what I do is I stop and ask God, is this something that I should intervene in or do something about? Or am I just supposed to stay and, and encourage the person but allow them to go through? And so it’s about, what are the boundaries that you put in place so that you’re not on 24-7 and drained personally. And do you have a do not disturb that you turn on your phone? Do you tell the people that you work with that, hey, I just I can’t meet your need at this moment. But here’s a service that can provide support or here’s somebody else that can facilitate the need that you have, because there are, people are always in crisis. Yeah. And then what do you do in terms of, as you were saying, the self-care piece? Where do you go to find the peace, the joy, the fun, the laughter, the getting your soul fed? For me, I love beaches, I love the sand, I love the water. There’s just something so wonderful about water. That’s my happy place. Yeah. Mountains are okay. Yeah. But it’s the beach. That’s my, you get me near water, I’m a happy woman.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, because I can already hear in my head when people say, well, I mean, but I have this person and they need a feeding schedule, and that person has to be me. So they are stuck into positions they can’t get their way out of. But. In a lot of people’s…there’s what you’re… There’s the, the space you’re describing of discernment, of what’s mine–what’s mine, what’s mine to do that is like that is a tough place of wisdom, especially when we get those of us who get, feel so much empathy, we jump at every noise. Yes, yes. And then all of a sudden, our whole lives can be shaped around it. Yes. And then what are we going to do?

Angela: Right. Right.

Kate: Find a beach? Yes. We need more beaches. Yeah. Yeah. I have this great friend, Gary Haugen, who you would love. He runs International Justice Mission. It’s this group of lawyers who do these incredible cases around the world to end–mostly they work on modern slavery issues. He has this wonderful staff, and but because so many of the cases they have are so heavy, I mean, exploitation of children, a lot to do with sex trafficking. They have this bit in their day and they, where they, they all have to stop working and they have like a, a spiritual service, but they have what they call, “the awkward pause” and they institutionalized it. And it’s the moment where you feel like the lurching, where you just kind of have to stop. And then turn your focus. And I thought, like, what an amazing thing, to become the high-capacity people that, that that know how to give, but also kind of know how to shift gears. Yeah. Even in our hearts if it doesn’t feel natural.

Angela: Now I’m a work in progress. I will admit that because I just… Right now I, I feel like I’m in an Esther moment. And so, Queen Esther, in the Bible in the Old Testament, her Uncle Mordecai came to her and said, “Who knows? But you were called for such a time as this.” And so I feel as if I’m in an Easter moment right now. And because I was called for such a time as this, I don’t want any grass to grow under my feet. I’m just moving, moving, moving quick, fast, in a hurry. But I have to also recognize there there needs to be, it’s imperative, that there’s balance. So I am a work in progress.

Kate: Because when you say that, I think of your dad’s, “Now is the time” feeling. It does make us want to get up and go. Angela. Everything you say. I adore you. And I want you to know that my moon face is just staring at you with complete love. Thank you so much for this conversation. What a gift

Angela: Well, thank you for the invitation to be here, I’ve enjoyed it.

Kate: Isn’t it just so obvious that Angela is also a preacher? She’s just got that joy in her advocacy the way that she’s just like she’s a pusher. She’s just nudging us all toward that feeling of being willing to experience and be part of interdependence. She is reminding us that we might be the exact people our communities need for such a time as this. There is this strange and beautiful truth that somehow caring for others can whittle away at our own sorrow. That joy, somehow, can be the fuel to continue to bear witness to the impossible situations you might encounter in your own life or in your day job. So let’s bless you as you serve. Okay? As you keep caring.

Kate: Bless you all in these beautiful and terrible contradictions. You who serve others, knowing it comes at a steep cost. That time you’ll never get back, those people who won’t ever be as grateful as you hope the paycheck, or time off or benefits that will never add up to enough. May you be reminded that maybe you were called for such a time as this to pour out your great, great gifts for the sake of the other, to work toward this beautiful, terrible interdependence. Even if community is much easier in theory than in practice. And on the days when you feel like your work is just a drop in the ocean or that you want to throw in the towel because you are far beyond burnout, may joy and delight be yours, my dears. And may it fuel the beautiful hard work you do. And hey, if you’re just beginning a move toward service, may you have the eyes to see the needs in front of you, the places where your gifts and passions and resources meet your community’s deep needs. Or maybe you’re just starting to ask for help yourself. Bless you. May your courage be met with kindness. You are my favorite kinds of people, and I adore you. Bless you all.

Kate: United Way is an incredible organization that leans into the power of community. So if you check out our show notes at KateBowler.com/podcast, you can find ways that you can get involved in the work they’re doing in your area. They’re really magical. I’m sure you got a sense of that. This is also the part of the episode where I get to say, oh my goodness, thank you to everyone who makes this work possible, like our generous partners. This whole thing is really only possible because of the amazing people at the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment who wanted to support this from second one. Thank you so much. Thank you. Also to my academic home, Duke Divinity School, and our very new podcast network Lemonada, where their slogan is, “When life gives you Llemons, listen to Lemonada.” So, yeah, hilarious.

Kate: And of course, a massive shout-out to my perfect team. Jessica Richie, I love you more than you will possibly be comfortable with. Harriet Putnam. Keith Weston, Gwen Heginbotham, Brenda Thompson, Hope Anderson, Kristen Balzer, Jeb Burt and Katherine Smith. Hey, and we’ve got really fun things coming this fall, and I don’t want you to miss anything. So if you head over to KateBowler.com/newsletter, you can sign up for my free weekly email. It’s got all kinds of things. Insider information, video clips from this episode or others, discussion questions, must-read books, free printables, and more. And hey, it would be just a spectacular gift for me if you would do a very annoying and helpful thing, which is could you leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify? It just takes a couple of minutes, but it makes a huge difference to how other people see and support our show. And while you’re there, you know, make sure you don’t miss an episode. If you click on the subscribe button, then it will send you all the new episodes that air every week on Tuesday in particular. Also, we love hearing your voice. Leave us a voicemail. We might even use it on the air. Call us at 9193228731. All right, lovelies. I’m going to talk to you next week when I’m going to be speaking with a New Testament scholar and theologian: N.T. Wright. We had tea in his garden. Yeah. So basically #lifemade. He’s amazing. He’s so smart. He will blow your mind. But in the meantime, come find me online, @katecbowler. This is. Everything Happens with me, Kate Bowler.