Bozoma Saint John

Kate Bowler: Multiple things can be true at the same time, right? Like the… This is one of the things that our community knows so well. We can be laughing while in deep grief. We can feel lucky to caregive for someone and at the same time be totally exhausted by it. We can be hopeful for what’s to come and terrified of what it might mean. We can feel excited about our changing families and full of dread of what we’ll miss. The culture around us tries to force us into one dominant emotion. Empty nesting? Congratulations! New baby? Good luck sleeping again! Diagnosis? Just be positive. Except that’s just never how it goes. It’s always…everything. All at once. My name is Kate Bowler and this is Everything Happens. And today my guest speaks so honestly about this reality, about how much dread and hope and courage and fear and relief and rage can exist all at once in a human life. You’re going to love her honesty. Bozoma Saint John is a really impressive person. She is an incredible marketing executive, serving top roles at, you know, little-known places like Pepsi, Apple Music, Uber, and most recently as the Global Marketing Officer at Netflix. But she’s also a woman who knows the roller coaster of profound love and deep loss. Her memoir, The Urgent Life, tells the story of her hard-won wisdom and complicated grief as she faced her husband’s terminal cancer diagnosis. Bozoma, I am so grateful we’re talking today.

Bozoma Saint John Wow. Thank you so much, I’m really, really, really glad to be here.

Kate: If you don’t mind, I kind of wondered if we could start at the beginning. It sounds like when you first met Peter, you had no idea that, like, that guy would play such a huge role in your life. Tell me about Peter.

Bozoma: First, I just want to stop on that for a second, you know? Because how often does that happen in our lives, though, right? Where you meet someone. And if you had known at the moment that you met them the role that they’d play in your life, right? It’s just like, it just feels like, oh, wow, we’re barreling through life. And you meet someone and it could be a best friend, it could be a love interest, it could be a future boss, it could be any any kind of relationship. But it’s like how profound it is later to think about that chance meeting.

Kate: Yes. You’re like, you’re the guy at the coffee shop. You’re that guy.

Bozoma: Like, if I had known that the obnoxious big white man in line at the cafeteria was going to have such an incredible impact on my life, I might have behaved differently in that moment. You know what I mean? That I might have, I might have just paused in the moment and been like, “laaaaaa” the angel parts singing, you know, the halo comes across over his head. Like that. I would have I would have behaved differently, I think. But instead I was like, “Who in the hell are you? And why do you think you’re even good enough to talk to me?” Like, seriously. You, me?

Kate: And it sounds like you were so in love and yet such different people. You have Ghanaians over here and you’ve got Italians, like really, at like peak Italian content over there.

Bozoma: Yes, Italian Catholic on top. Don’t forget the Catholic part. Yes. But yeah, I mean look, it’s like the differences that we had really didn’t stop any of our connection, our love, you know. And that that for me, is also part of what changed my perspective about people, about life. Is that you could not have written on paper two more different people, you know? To fall in love.

Kate: Yeah, yeah. The story of the very rapid and painful move from Ghana to the United States. I mean, your family had been through the wringer. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, my parents were also what I consider stereotypically African, but the world didn’t consider them stereotypically African because the picture that has been painted of who Africans are is so vastly different. Right? It’s like, when you think of Africans, you think of the children with distended bellies and flies on their eyes and send them a penny a day so they can eat, you know? Whereas like my parents speak four languages each, you know? They are very rich in culture, very proud. Like there is nothing about them that makes you think like, oh, they would be ashamed to say they’re African or they moved to the U.S. for this great American dream and forgetting where they were from. You know, there was no assimilation in their in their entire ethos. None. No, it’s like, “We happen to live in America.” Yes. No, we happen to live here. We could just as well live in Italy or we could just as well live in Finland. But we live in America. We are still Ghanian, still very proudly so. And so it was very strange for me when I would meet people and it was almost like assumed that I should be ashamed of my Africanness, you know, that somehow that was lesser because they come from a place that is exalted as being better than this very dark continent. Right? And so even when I met Peter and his family, I think it probably surprised them about how proud I am of my heritage, as proud as they are of theirs! You know, like you can’t talk about Christopher Columbus to them in any kind of negative way, you know what I’m saying? Like, you better, Columbus Day comes, you better not say anything about Indigenous Peoples’ Day. They don’t even fix your face, you know? Meanwhile, I’m just like, well, the rape and pillage of the Americas is very much like the rape and pillage of Africa, you know? And it was like, “Ahhhh! Stop, stop, stop!” You know? So for me, the idea of my bi-culturalness, you know, being very proudly Ghanaian, being very proudly American, like all of that just felt very normal to me. I’m like, Yes, of course I can have all the things. Of course I can be all the things. Why would I be ashamed of any of it that makes me who I am?

Kate: When you fell in love and you wanted to move in together, your dad had this very—I grew up in Canada, and I have a lot of immigrant family friends, and it seemed like peak immigrant dad move, were he was like, “Oh, I’m sorry, you’re doing what? I’m sorry. I might be in China right now, but, like, I’m getting on a flight.”

Bozoma: Yes!

Kate: “I’m going to show up in your boyfriend’s office at work. And we’re, we’re going to have a chat.”

Bozoma: Oh, yeah. For me, my dad, our relationship has been one that has been fraught with great expectations. And I say fraught because… Look, I don’t think that my dad ever put those expectations on me because he wanted me to fail at them or because he wanted me to feel trapped or anything negative. He put those expectations because he thought I could achieve them. And still does, you know. He’s like, “Oh, no, you ARE the best. And so therefore I expect the best out of you. And also you are an example to your sisters. And so I want you to go first, conquer the world, and then your sisters are going to follow you and conquer their own.” You know? That that was the expectation. So for me to say, you know, at 23 years old that I am, first of all, moving to New York City, not going to medical school, going to be an assistant, grab somebody’s coffee with my, my, you know, very expensive education. And now I’m going to move in with my boyfriend that I’ve known for seven months? He was like, “Absolutely not. No.” And so, yeah, he flew from China as soon as I told him. Right. And didn’t even have a conversation with me about it because he felt like it was falling on deaf ears. So he’s like, I’m going to go meet this person who has so influenced my daughter. Right? And I think it’s, you know, both are beautiful and frustrating because nothing is ever straight, is it? It’s like it’s always complicated-feeling. It made me feel both protected and loved and also very frustrated and minimized when he decided to just talk to Peter about it. You know? Because here he, right? Here he is. Like, “I’m going to make sure that this person is not going to take advantage of you. I love you enough that I am going to go to hell and back. It doesn’t matter where I am in the world. I am coming at the drop of the dime to ensure that this person is going to take care of you, Take care of your heart, take care of your body, take care of your needs, whatever it is.” Right? And at the same time, I was like, “Well, why don’t I have a voice in this? You’ve raised me as the chief heir to every expectation that you have, like a son. And you think I’m not smart enough for knowledgeable enough to make a decision as big as this on my own?” You know? So it was a complicated feeling.

Kate: That love you have for your dad is so palpable and the, like the dignity we get when people expect the world from us is so intense. And you had such an intense inversion, though, in such a short period of time, because like when you get married, that just happens to also be the time when your parents’ marriage falls apart. When you’re formidable, amazing, larger than life, dad is now like living with you in a studio apartment. That must have been a very strange kind of way to… I don’t know if it… Was it like aging into your own expectations for your life? It’s just so odd when we have like the different inversion with our parents.

Bozoma: I know. You know what? I don’t think that we talk about that enough, right? We don’t. When, when does that time happen? Like, there’s two inflection points, I feel like, with our parents or someone who’s in a parental role to you, right? The first, when you realize they’re human. That moment, where it’s just like, “Oh, my God.” Like, they, oo, they really, oh, no. I didn’t know this. They don’t know everything? And they’re not, like, indestructible? Like that, you know, that first moment when you realize that they’re human. And then the second when you realize that you may be in a more powerful position than they are. That is a real mind bleep. It’s like, you know, I. I was just at that time, it’s like all of the complexities and this is why I’m saying that nothing is clean. So why do we expect our lives to be clean all the time? Y’all are battling these two very serious and different emotions. For me, it was like the joy and euphoria of being a newlywed and having, like all of these expectations of this glorious marriage, right? I’d taken these incredible vows that felt like, oh, of course I could do this forever. And at the same time, my parents 25-year marriage is just tanking and not just tanking, imploding. Even though I had witnessed cracks in it before, I just thought, oh, they’ll be fine. This is, this is what it is. They’ll just stick together and they’ll figure it out, the patch it up, and then everything will be okay. That’s what marriage is supposed to be, right? And then this person, my father, who has been a provider and a protector for me. Again, undefeated. You think about like where he came from and what he was able to overcome. Like, he had just hustled everything and was able to make it. And so then he becomes someone who does not have any power and needs my help. It—it’s just a very upside down type of feeling and there is no explaining it in a clean, linear way. So if all of the feelings happen at the same time, and that’s why even today, sometimes I look at life and I’m just like, you know, why would you be upset if you can…if you’re living with two opposing emotions. You know, it’s like my favorite thing when somebody is arguing with me or, you know, trying to explain to me, “But I have this and then that and then da da da,” and I’m like, “Yes, but all those things can be true at the same time. You can be the euphoric in your marriage and scared shitless because you see somebody else is falling apart that you thought was indestructible. Those two things can be true.

Kate: Yes.

Bozoma: You know? You can feel like you are protected by somebody and also feel like you are more powerful than them at the same time. It’s a very complicated feeling.

Kate: I think that’s one of the things I care about the most is how limiting our cultural scripts can be. When we were, we’re told we’re only allowed to have one, one dominant emotion that suffocates all others.

Bozoma: Amen.

Kate: And I mean, I would actually, I’d love to be a person with a single feeling.

Bozoma: Oh my God. Can you imagine? Exactly.

Kate: What are they like?

Bozoma: If you were, if you could just have a single feeling all the time, life would be so much more simple. But it’s like grief in that way, right? Like, grief is like that. Where it’s like, look, I think also it’s a it’s it’s something we should talk about because it feels to the person who’s grieving, like, I can’t have any other emotion because it’s not normal. I can’t be grieving and sad and despondent and also laugh. I can’t also be hopeful for the future. Like I can’t be fearful and also relieved. You know? It’s, it’s a shame to feel that way because people have assigned us these singular emotions, although that is not the way life works and that is not the way any of us operate. And so why is it that we hold this belief? Why is it that we expect people to just be one dimensional? And put those expectations on somebody.

Kate: I always think it’s so interesting to how people narrate other people’s lives exactly like that, where they’re like, “She had it all. Everything was perfect. And…” You know what I mean? Like, it’s like a promo in a news segment where you can see the, “And then…”

Bozoma: Yeah, exactly. You’re like no, actually, she never had it all, okay? Stop putting that on her. There were days when she was over here, like, crying in the corner because she thought everything sucked, right? And it probably did, actually. So let’s not pretend like life was ever perfect all the time. Like, what are you even talking about?

Kate: It’s so true. I always felt so uncomfortable when people were describing me, when I would do, like, book tour stuff because they would be like, she married her high school sweetheart. She’d just had a baby. And then it was like, actually, things have been pretty tough for about a decade. I lost use of my arms for a bit. And like, I just…none of it ever.

Bozoma: Exactly. You’re just like, it didn’t all just, like, go crashing down. There were fissures in the, in the perfect plan, you know?

Kate: That’s exactly right.

Kate: We’ll be right back.

Kate: I want… One of the ways that you describe your pregnancy, too, is so honest about that, because it was like, it was a complicated realization that—tell me about that moment.

Bozoma: So when Peter and I got married, the truth, right? We didn’t talk about kids, actually. We really didn’tt. And I know that’s probably shocking. But we really didn’t. I think it was just an assumed thing. I had my assumptions and he had his assumptions. It wasn’t like I didn’t want kids. I just didn’t want them anytime soon. And I really didn’t think I wanted a lot of them. And as I got into my career and, you know, our relationship, I was kind of like, eh, take it or leave it. You know, it was just like, I wasn’t pressed about it. And he really wanted kids. And so his assumption was like, oh, after like year one, here comes the baby. And I’m thinking like, I don’t know, maybe year ten or 12. Like, what the hell? You know? But that’s the thing, is that like, I think sometimes, you know, again, you’re in these, in relationships and even when they’re serious and even when you’re in love, you’re both over here making assumptions about these very core things that you never actually put real words and numbers to. Again, something that has changed me entirely, not just in my personal and romantic relationships, but at work, everywhere else. It’s like, we make these assumptions as if everybody’s on the same page, and you are not on the same page. You’re not. And it may feel like ah, it’s uncomfortable to say these things and put times on things or numbers on things to make it tangible. But it will be a life-saver later on. And we just did not have those conversations. And so in year five, when he’s like, “So when are we having this baby?” You know. And I’m just like, oh, hell no, I’m not coming off the pill. I’m not. Now we’re going to talk about that next year. How about next year we talk about it? And then here I go. Pregnant. And I was devastated, devastated, sad. And I couldn’t believe it because it just felt like…my world as I knew it was going to end. And again, I don’t think we talk about this enough where it’s like, look, on paper it looked like everything was perfect, right? Why should I be sad about that? Here I am in a successful marriage, five years in. We lived on, you know, a beautiful apartment overlooking Central Park in Manhattan. We both had amazing jobs, great careers. I was, like, on the rocket ship, so was he. Of course, we should have a baby. Healthy, successful. Exciting, great friends, great family support. Why wouldn’t we have a baby? And when I got pregnant, I couldn’t say that to anybody. I couldn’t tell anybody that I didn’t think it was time that I was afraid that this baby was going to come and ruin everything. Ruin my career, slow me down, change my body, maybe change our relationship. When I would, when would I have me time? I heard all these horror stories about not sleeping with a newborn and I’m like, no, but I like my sleep, see. Okay? You know, all of the things. And so I was very, I was very scared and upset, but there was no one to tell that to. I couldn’t even tell my own husband. Right. And that kind of pressure made me feel ashamed. It made me feel like there was something wrong with me as a woman. Because why didn’t I have all those warm and fuzzy feelings? Why is it that I found out I was pregnant and then start screaming and crying and call my best friend. You know? Why was I crying real tears of sorrow and didn’t tell my mother for two weeks. No, it’s like that kind of feeling. And so by the time. I was well into my pregnancy and still kind of like resistant to it. But then going into a checkup and realizing that there’s something wrong, everything shifted again. And then it was I had the feelings of shame because it was like, oh, but I didn’t appreciate this. You know, I thought everything was normal and fine. I didn’t appreciate what I had is such a gift. And so perhaps it was punishment for my, for my ingratitude. I just didn’t know. I didn’t know. I didn’t know that pregnancy could be dangerous or scary or anything, because, again, we don’t talk about it. You know, you’re just supposed to get the glow, right? We’re “glowing.”

Kate: Yes. Yes. We get a full, “What to Expect When You’re Expecting” montage.

Bozoma: Oh, my God. Exactly. They didn’t tell me that the glow is just swelling. They didn’t tell me the glow is sweat. Uncontrollable sweat. They didn’t say anything about that? And so here I am, like, I can’t even do this right. You know? It was just a very, it was a very difficult, difficult time. And by the time I was really in danger, you know, from a physical and health standpoint and also the threat to my pregnancy, I was just confused about how to feel. And I wish I knew then that all the things could be true at the same time, that you can be fearful and grateful at the same time, that you can have regret and also hope at the same time. I didn’t, I didn’t know that that could be true. So I thought I didn’t have a right to feel protective over this life that I didn’t want. I didn’t know I had the right to do that. And I wish I had known that. I wish I could have embraced all of it. I wish I could have said, you know what? The last five months were terrible, you know? But now. But now, now I’m going to celebrate. Now I’m going to be okay. I didn’t feel like I had the permission. And how terrible is it that, like, I couldn’t even say that to anybody, even articulate it. So here I am arguing with myself in my own head. About that.

Kate: And then to process a traumatic pregnancy and delivery.

Bozoma: Yes. And yes.

Kate: And and a terrible loss with all the physical reminders that you’re…

Bozoma: That’s right. Because, you know, at the end of my pregnancy, I had to deliver my daughter early because I developed preeclampsia very early, severe. And while on the delivery table and just fighting with every, everything that I had in me, the realization of my complete failure was devastating. You know, I just felt like. Wow, I didn’t even have that natural maternal instinct to begin with. And then, when I did realize that I want to protect this child, I can’t even do that. Like that, the devastation of that, and then on top of the grief of actually losing her. Yeah. So it’s not just psychological, but the physical. And then, you know, in the weeks following. With having to deal with engorged breasts. That then the milk came, but no baby. You know? Or like healing. And I’m sure there is some sort of I haven’t looked into this, but I’m sure there’s some sort of biological, like the endorphins and things that happen to help your body heal, you know, that just weren’t happening for me. And so all of that complicated feeling was also sitting aside my hope for the future. My hope that like, okay, okay, okay. I’m ready. Okay. I’m going to do this. I want a baby now. I’m. Now I’m ready. And I want to go for it again.” And then there’s like a fighting spirit to make it happen. You know, all of those things at the same time was devastating.

Kate: The fact that you chose the word. Failure as opposed to tragedy like is so, is such an insider view of this, like the terrible math that we do when we suffer, you know, just to like, transform these tragedies into—I remember that feeling so intensely, like I have failed. I have, I have failed. I am not… Terrible things are happening and I am not in control of this, this must be… And then, you know, dot, dot, dot.

Bozoma: Yeah, but, right. But you’re so right. Because we do that over everything. It’s like if a tornado had come hit your house, you be like, “Damn it, I failed at keeping my house….”

Kate: Exactly. Exactly. I shouldn’t have have turned on the blow dryer and made all this wind.

Bozoma: Exactly. Right? You know? And it’s, I guess we can laugh about that. And at the same time…

Kate: It’s devastating.

Bozoma: You and I probably sit here and compare notes about so many situations where you would tell me and I’d be like, “Oh, come on, girl, that was not your fault,” you know? Or you’d sit there and be like, “Boz, I mean, come on. Like, you really like, this was pretty fancy. You really could not have done anything to, you know, be different.” And I’m like, nah girl, if I’d have eaten that extra garlic…” Which, by the way, my mother in law did make me eat garlic the rest of my next pregnancy.

Kate: Stop.

Bozoma: Oh, yeah. Oh, you know.

Kate: It’s the most Italian solution ever.

Bozoma: Oh, my, girl, and it has to be roasted, too.

Kate: All right. I guess this is my life now.

Bozoma: Yep, and she swears by it, by the way. She’s like, “See, I told you.” Of course, because when my daughter was born, she’s like, if you hadn’t eat the garlic…

Kate: Exactly.

Bozoma: You right, you right. Let me give him that one. I give it to her.

Kate: But it sounds like a, like a switch was flipped and you’re like, okay, that’s it. Like, I like I do want to be a mom. And that became a very like, you were determined.

Bozoma: Can I tell you the truth, though?

Kate: Yeah.

Bozoma: I don’t know if it was that I said, I’m ready to be a mom. I think it was that I wanted to be successful at pregnancy.

Kate: Ohhh.

Bozoma: Yeah, if I’m telling you the whole truth. I think I wanted to be successful. The idea of being a good mom or being a mom to this living person. Didn’t happen until she was actually here. Man. That’s really the truth. Is I… Like I said, as I felt like such a failure in pregnancy. I just want to have a successful one. I want to feel like I did it. You know, and even in my second pregnancy when some of the same things started happening. They were happening, and that actually—let me say this. We were just like, look, my pre-eclampsia, my first pregnancy, the symptoms started about 24 weeks, you know, So even though it’s early, it was still in a quote unquote, “reasonable” time where you would expect preeclampsia to start. In my second pregnancy, my symptoms started eight weeks. And so that was, it was very, very early. But I felt more successful about it—again, even though was irrational because it had nothing to do with what I could do or not do, you know. But I felt more successful at it because I was prepared, because I had a doctor who was a specialist, because I had my band at home and I could take my blood pressure on my cuff. I could take my blood pressure at home. I had my Lovenox that I was shooting myself up with every day to thin my blood. I was taking my medications and my vitamins. I was like, Oh, yeah, no, look, I’ve got to map on this one.

Kate: Yeah. Like you’re a pro.

Bozoma: And I’m going to do it, you know? Even though this pre-eclampsia has come back with a vengeance. And when I went into the hospital for the last time with my daughter Lael, even though it was only a few weeks after I had gone into the hospital with Eve in my first pregnancy, I felt more successful because I was like, ah, well, I gave myself a few more weeks. You know, that is what I, that was the feeling I had. And when he was born was when I was like. Oh. Now there’s this human here that I’m supposed to be a parent to. Okay, well, that was not part of the deal, y’all. You know what I mean? I didn’t know what this. I was just trying to get through the pregnancy, that’s all. That’s all. So now we’re doing this thing. Yeah, yeah.

Kate: Totally.

Bozoma: And so it wasn’t until then. I don’t know if other people feel that way, ever. But I really didn’t understand what it was going to mean, you know, to be a mother until she was born. And if I can tell you some more truth, I think every day. Every day makes me feel more confident about my motherhood. You know, I feel better as a mother today, even though the challenges are different. We’re dealing a whole different set of new things where I’m just like, “I don’t remember reading this in the handbook…” You know, every day something is different. But I feel more confident. I feel happier in my motherhood today than I did back then. And I wish if I could go back and tell myself, I wish I could I could tell myself that, you know, that my own motherhood journey, not necessarily for anybody else, but my own motherhood journey, would get significantly better as time went on. You know, as she grew, as our relationship grew, as I got to know her as her own person, not as a ward, you know? But as her own human who is interesting and funny and, ou know, just, she’s just a special person. Like I, I like her. I don’t just love her. I like her. And it’s so much better now.

Kate: We’ll be right back.

Kate: The devastating loss of your first pregnancy. It sounds like it like opened up a space in your marriage that you… I mean, didn’t mean to be there and was kind of a, it’s like a shocking deterioration.

Bozoma: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, you, know, it was so shocking to me because we had been on the same team during my pregnancies, right? That when we found out that I was sick with Eve and my first pregnancy was like the two of us together, trying to figure out how to make it work. You know, and then she died and it was the two of us in our grief. You know, like nobody else could understand what we were going through but us. And so it was two of us together. And then I got pregnant. And even though our reactions were different, because here I was celebrating my successful, you know, successfully impregnated, you know, check! Step one, you know? And he was feeling fearful and unsure. We were still a team because, like, okay, now that this has happened, we’re going to get this, going to get through this together, right? And then Leal was born and all of a sudden we were not a team. And I promise you happened overnight. I promise you, like all of a sudden, it was like, who could protect her better? Who could, just… do better by her, who is not going to fuck her up. And so even when she was like in the NICU and Peter would go to work. And of course, now I have much better perspective right on the situation, like thinking like, in empathy for him in having to leave the NICU, or not even going to see her in the morning and go straight to work and then after hours at work, finally get off, be able to come to the hospital, see her for maybe an hour, and then we’re kicked out of there. Meanwhile, I’m there all day. You know, he woke up to go to work. I woke up to go to hospital. And he would come and that hour that he had, he was trying to learn the things I had been learning for 9 hours. You know, how to change her diaper or how to fix the feeding tube or, you know, swaddle her or any number of things, you know. And when she came home, it was worse because it was like, you know, I, I felt that he was doing everything wrong. And he felt like he couldn’t learn because I was in his way and he wanted his own kangaroo time. And even then I was just like, But your chest is too hairy for that, you realize that? So I want to be on that. And he’s like, How do you know? Like, she can’t tell you that. I’m like, I can feel it. I know. I’m her mother. And so we went from being partners. True partners too then, our home was a battlefield on who could take care of her better. And that was something that became… and you, and you know what I’m trying to say.

Kate: Irreparable.

Bozoma: Thank you. Irreparable break that we couldn’t fix because there was no winning that argument.

Kate: Yeah. It’s so wild. The way that caretaking changes us. It like gives us… It’s like, it takes a relationship and then hands people jobs, where just like, “Oh wait…”

Bozoma: Yes. Yes, you’re right. Yeah. I have had time to think about this, to be introspective about it, and think about the empathy that I should have had for him. And the grace I should have given myself, too. I certainly wasn’t giving myself any grace. Zero, because I had to be perfect. You know, and again, it’s like I look back at that time and I wish I would have given us some grace to be the imperfect humans that we are to be the first time parents who don’t know anything, who are guessing through this. I wish I knew that she was indestructible and that she’d survive our mistakes. You know what I mean? That like, you know, one diaper that was wet an extra hour won’t kill her, you know? I just, I just wish I knew that. And then given us some grace about it.

Kate: Yes. We’re so, we’re so different sometimes, with the people we love the most, when we’re operating in a place of fear, which is, you know, for so many of us, like most of the time. But the separation between you and Peter sounds like it was was like about three, three years? Right?

Bozoma: Yeah. Yeah, it was about three years. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Kate: And then you just get, like, a full strange, like, echo of having to deal with difficulty all over again when your mom and Peter are both diagnosed with cancer at the same time. And then, and then you’re a caretaker again.

Bozoma: Yes.

Kate: Were you… Did you find yourself different in that second time around or would it…? How do you think you were as opposed to, like your first time mom fears?

Bozoma: Hmm, yeah, that’s an interesting question. You don’t… I think I was just too…overwhelmed by it all, to be honest with you, to even behave any differently than as a survivor. You know, we often talk about survivors of cancer as the patients. Right. But never as a survivor, as the caretaker. And there are survival tactics and then wounds that come off of that survivor. That exists and we don’t talk about that. You know, so it’s it’s a very difficult place to be because I didn’t feel I had the permission, much like in my first pregnancy to express my frustration, my fear, my anger, my exhaustion. I didn’t have permission to do that because who was I compared to the people who were sick? It’s like, how do you even fix your face to say that? How do I say I’m tired when he’s just gone through chemo and radiation? How do I say I’m scared when my mom is on her second battle and she doesn’t know, if there’ll be a third. How do I say I need some relief? When they’re both sitting there with hair falling out and don’t even want to look at themselves in the mirror. You know, it’s like, how do you express that as a caretaker? You can’t. You don’t have the permission to. And so my behavior that second time around…perhaps even felt more like a prison than the first time. Because now I’m like, I’m a caretaker to my kid. I’m a caretaker for my estranged husband. I’m a caretaker for my mom, and I’m just trying to keep all the balls in the air and not complain about it.

Kate: And, and then you’re presented with a kind of, I mean, like an unthinkable choice. When you get that phone call that says that Peter’s diagnosis is, that it’s untreatable. Yeah. What was going through your mind when you’re trying to figure out what that new crisis would mean for your life?

Bozoma: Well, there was a big dose of regret. Over how I had treated, especially the three years prior to his illness. You know, I was just like, “Oh, I wasted so much time.” You know, we could have we could have figured this out like, I wasted time, you know, and then feeling like, hopeful. Because I’m okay, well, here’s a chance for us to, like, really live it up for as much time as we have left. Like we are going to, like, be in love, like teenagers, you know? And then in the middle of caretaking, you know, and I don’t know how many caretakers will admit this, but… And I’ll admit it to you, which is that at some point you start thinking like, what will life be like afterwards? And you feel relief. You know, just like, I just wish this would end already. Oh, and it’s a terrible feeling to have because all you’re doing is praying that they get well! You know? Right? It’s like, that’s the way you’ve got to be. But then at the same time, you just say, well, if it’s going to end, couldn’t it just end now? So I can, I can stop being afraid of when it’s coming? Because even up until like the last day when, you know, we had or I would say last days before that, we had reconciled, we were in love like teenagers again. And it felt different. You know, the butterflies were not the same. But it felt like a coming home. And at the same time, it felt like, just trying to squeeze as much time into it as possible because, you know, when you’re in love, you just feel like you have all the time in the world. And so there’s an intensity to loving in the face of death. There’s a different intensity to that. It makes you more intentional about the love, about the things you choose to do. It makes you intentional about forgiveness. Now it’s not even so much like, Oh, I’m gonna forgive him for putting the socks on the floor when I told them the the bin was out over there, you know? It’s more about the forgiveness of like the things that you thought were irreparable. The big things. A personality trait that you’re just like…

Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For not being the person that you needed them to be. To forgive them for something that big.

Bozoma: Exactly! Yeah. Yeah. Or like I said, like, to give him some grace. To give him some grace. Give myself grace. Because I had forgive myself a lot, too, in order to be open to loving him and to being loved. You know, because after I wrote the book, a lot of people asked me like, you know, what was it like to, you know, love him again? And I was like, it’s not just that. It was, what was it like to be loved by him again like that? That was the gift also that I was giving myself. Was that I wanted to also feel what that was like again, before it was gone. And so some of it was selfish. You know, in that I wanted to be able to… I wanted to be able to remember that feeling in the present and to be aware of it, you know, because you can be loved very well and be grateful for it and know that you’re being loved well. But it’s a different feeling when you know it’s going to go away. And so then you are more intentional about receiving it and holding on to it and saying, okay, let me remember what this feels like. This intensity of his gaze. You know, the way that he has light, his eyes light up when I walk in the room, I want to remember that. You know? And so there’s some parts of it that’s, like I said, everything can be true at once. You know, where I can be fearful and angry at him for getting sick. And being like, “I know you should have worn that jacket, that three years ago, when I told you to put on that coat before you went outside? I bet you that’s where you got cancer from.” I bet you that’s what happened. It’s just like, what kind of ridiculous thing? You know what I’m saying? Just listen to me. And it’s like, you know, and also, just, you know, being mad at God and just being like, why is this happening all at the same time? And why is my mother better, but he’s not? Who decided that? And not that I would want them to trade places, but I’m just like, well, why can’t they both be well? You know

Kate: Yes. We all learned our lessons, we’re all better now, thank you. Thank you so much. I have become a better person…

Bozoma: I’m a completely different human now. Now, take this away. You know? It’s like all these things at the same time. And also feeling the grief from my daughter. Not even in her present moment, but for what the future would hold. I was grieving what she didn’t even understand was coming yet. And I still do. You know?

Kate: I just love how like, even then in that like bright, terrible beauty, which is somebody dying, like the strange holiness of it and how clear everything gets. And you’re describing this man looking at you and saying like, this is my kingdom. Like the love he has for you. And yet at the same time being like, Well, but I really wish you would have written the letters to our daughter that I would—like, could you also just do this in a way that I need for my future parenting self? Like you’re so honest about the like, this is, this is all happening in the same,.

Bozoma: At the same time. At the same time! Yes. Yes. Like at the same time, I can look at him and want to just squeeze him and like, just get all the love and the hugs and remember what his arms like around me. At the same time, I’m just like, and I also want to strangle you at the same time because I really need you to write these letters. You know? It’s just like, this hug now is going to turn into murder, you know? Yeah, yes. Because I like, and by the way, also, post the book, in part two of the book, is the fact that like there are many times now where I’ll still be like. UGH I told you you should have written that letter because I could give it to her right now! You know, it’s like the day that she told me about her first crush. I was like, Peter, if you had written that note that I told you to write when she first, like, finds that… Like that, that was a great moment to give it to her. Now I’m thinking about her 16th birthday, which is in two years, and I’m like, oh, I wish she had something to read from her dad.

Kate: Oh hun. That’s so real.

Bozoma: I mean, I just. But there are also unforeseen things. Like, you know, a year ago, she had gone out with a friend, and I don’t know what triggered it, really, but she went over to a friend’s house and they were hanging out with her dad, you know. And she came home and she was so upset. And here I am ready to go, you know, bust down the door and, like, hurt her friend’d dad. Because look, I got some muscles, ok, I can beat people up.

Kate: I believe it!

Bozoma: And she was upset because she was saying that she couldn’t really remember her dad’s voice. So here I go, scrambling, looking for every video that I have in my phone that’s saved, you know, in some hard drive somewhere, trying to find videos. And then I’m mad because I’m like, I should have taken more videos. You know? I have voice notes from him, some like, and they’re mundane, stupid things, you know, And I’m just like, oh, I should have I should have recorded, like, conversations, like, maybe I should have just put the phone down and let it record us just talking about anything. Like, what a gift that would be for her today. And so, yes, all things can be true. Like I can…be in real joy that she is such a well-rounded and grounded person. Right? Because the grace that I was talking about before, you know, I allow myself grace, not to be perfect. I allow her grace not to be perfect. And I can still feel anger at Peter. For not writing the letters.

Kate: Oh, it’s so true. Yeah. I love you, I love you, I hate you, I love you.

Bozoma: Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Kate: Boz, you are a joy and a truth teller. And I have just like, loved talking to you. Thank you so much for doing this with me.

Bozoma: Thank you so much for having me! I really have so enjoyed it.

Kate: Life has so many unexpected twists and turns—but I don’t have to tell you that. You’re you. And you know that sometimes the things that happen to us along the way expand our hearts in ways we didn’t expect either. So I’ve made me think about this blessing that I was writing when I realized that I was going to be a lot of things and that maybe it was okay to feel it all. So if you’re someone who always just felt a little bit embarrassed that you’re feeling everything, then this one is especially for you. All right. A blessing for feeling it all: I feel things big. And for the longest time, I felt so much shame because of it. I need reminders that my emotions are not bad or good. They’re just information. You feel angry because this is unjust. You feel sad because this is awful. You feel tired because this is exhausting. Your emotions are not wrong or bad or lying to you or the full truth. They’re giving you a bit of data you shouldn’t ignore. We love and lose and fall and get back up and fail and try again. This is what it means to be human, to feel the pain, the grief, the stress, the risk, the fear, the heartbreak. So you, beautiful creature, you. Here is your permission slip to feel it all, to feel the joy and delight and excitement and the sorrow and fear and despair. All the yellows and pinks and violets and grays because you are the whole damn sky.

Kate: Hey, I have a new book of blessings and devotionals and minutes to think it through, and it’s coming out in January, if that’s your sort of thing. It’s called Have a Beautiful, Terrible Day and you can preorder it at your favorite bookstore now. And there’ll be a link in the show notes for you to learn more and see a sample of what’s inside. Oh, I also wanted to tell you about Bozoma’s sister, Alua. Alua moved in with Boz when Peter was dying and witnessed all of the practical bits that come up when we lose someone we love. The paperwork. The wills. The hard conversations. Inspired by that season, Alua has since become a Death Doula, helping other people prepare for that seeming-impossibility. You can watch the conversation I had with Alicia Arthur and Katie Couric, and I’ll put the link in the show notes for that, too.

Kate: Okay. Now is my favorite part of the conversation where I get to say, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you to the amazing people at the Lilly Endowment and the Duke Endowment for making it possible for me to tell stories about faith and life. I’m so grateful for all the work you put into this. A big shout out to my theological home, Duke Divinity School. And thank you to my podcast network, Lemonada. And the biggest shout out of all to my absolutely indefatigable (and that IS a word) team who makes it all possible. The great love of my life. Jessica Richie. Harriet Putman, Keith Weston, Gwen Heginbotham, Brenda Thompson, Hope Anderson, Kristen Balzer, Jeb Burt and Catherine Smith. Thank you, guys. And we love hearing from you. So if you leave us a voicemail, we might even be able to use it on the air. Call us at 9193228731. Okay, lovelies. Next week, I’m going to be having a conversation that many of you have been waiting for. I got to sit down with the thoughtful and gorgeous writer Katherine May. Oh, she’s so good at the contemplative, think-y think, who are we in the world. And what a perfect way to walk into this season of winter and Christmas and adventing. Oh, speaking about that, we have a free daily devotional for the Christmas season, if that’s your kind of thing. Download it katebowler.com/advent and you can do it by yourself or with your family or a friend. But it is just a minute of peace and it’s not too late to join us. And in the meantime come find me online at @KateCBowler. This is Everything Happens with me. Kate Bowler. Oh, right. Yes. Real quick. If you liked this conversation, could you do me a huge favor and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify? It makes a weirdly massive difference to how people find us and recognize the show or if people you like agree to be guests. So that would be really a big favor. And if you want to make sure that you’re subscribed and you’ll know when the episode, the new episode drops, click that subscribe button, which I just figured out on some of them looks like a plus. Anyway. New to technology. Amazing. All right, I’ll see you there.